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  • continuing off the last thread, for me, that Etolia section read more of an overview, as it's describing all 3 at once (geography, climate, and touches on it's main function within the Empire, like supplying food). Otherwise, divided out, you'd be back to each section only being one sentence: climate being it has harsh winter, geography just that it's very fertile, etc.

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    • The "overview" is basically the lead section and infobox. I think that part should just be in the lead section without a separate heading.

      Also, happy new thread!

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    • True, it can just be moved to the lead section instead.

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    • A question about game location pages: why is the journal entry the only thing that is allowed to go under game headers? I think this section should also include other gameplay attributes, perhaps like a description of the location's layout in-game, notable loot, and interactable objects, to name a few. If it's relevant to the game, why not put it under the corresponding game header instead of the notes?

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    • That's more to do with locations that have journal entries, which are usually kingdoms (like Temeria, Redania, etc.) and therefore shouldn't have any gameplay info beyond the journal. Is there a page you have in mind that's like this?

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    • Lots of locations besides the kingdoms have journal entries, such as Royal Palace (Vizima), or Kaer Morhen.

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    • Ah, Kaer Morhen is a special case that I still don't know what to do about. You've probably noticed there are separate article pages for locations within the keep from Tw1. I can't remember how it was in the first game, but I feel those should be combined somehow if possible.

      As for others, it should be fine to list gameplay info within its appropriate game header. The original idea was back when Juraj wished to try and switch character bios around to not have "Tw1" or "Film" separation headers but to read more like one flowing story, and that bled over to major kingdoms as they had journal entries on top of all the other lore information. But, for smaller locations (like the Royal Palace) it should be fine to list the appropriate game info in each game header (and of course, if it only appears in one game, doesn't even need a game header). One caution though, especially with Tw3, I'd refrain from listing lootable containers unless it's a location with a possible diagram spawn point.

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    • Yeah, for Tw3 a lot of the containers are random, though some are unique with guaranteed loot (those I would list).

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    • Maybe wouldn't continue arguing with you but the way text was written by Gra's authors indicates economical description so... plus I think it makes more sense as it talks about where and what the country mainly produces. I planned to expand it with info about fishering ftom TWRPG upon return.

      Also, what about the rest of what I wrote in a previous message?

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    • .

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    • @SMiki55: ?

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    • @Juraj dot for obtaining notifications

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    • You can even click on "follow" xD

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    • @Juraj: wich part were you referring to? I thought the last message was all about the Etolia bit. And regarding that, economics is more, how do they make they money, importing/exporting, what they manufacture, etc.

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    • @Mechemik: Studying economics + trade so I know that xD Problem's we dunno much more about Etolia so I left it as it was. Recently TWRPG came out. If I added its mentions of sea trade and unique fishing stuff (Etolian white belly fish), could it remain as "Economy"?

      And no it wasn't about Etolia, only the sentence in brackets was :)

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    • Yeah, that part could be economics (I'm assuming it has more substantial info than just "they earn money by sea" xD)

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    • Yeaa there is some more :D and can the Gra stufc go into it as well?

      And what about the reat of that messageeee?

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    • Mechemik?

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    • Whoops, forgot. Could you re-state what it was you were asking about? Because I keep reading the message and it's read to me the same as the economics/culture part.

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    • Eeeeh sorry but, to be sure I understood correctly, you want me to write that message again, maybe somewhat more clearly this time?

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    • Well, if you think that'll help (because as I said, right now it sounds like the same thing we were discussing in the first place).

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    • Alright, will do later today.

      PS: Why was mentioned only template removed from University of Lan Exeter's Appearence? It isn't in the game.

      PPS: Why are you so severe when it comes to Trivia? I understand you don't want it overly long but what's wrong with it having any details at all.

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    • Because if you notice, we don't do "mentioned" for any locations. If you want to change that though, that's going to be another big project, going through and fixing all of them.

      Because the extra bits should go in Easter Eggs page and just keep it concise on the other pages.

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    • Didn't know that. I actually added "mentioned" on Vizima cemetery and you didn't remove it. We really should start doing it tho, shouldn't we?

      Eh, why?

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    • Think you mean "you" because I really don't have time to go through and fix all locations like that xD

      Oh I see what you're referring to now. That one Avenger note I was shortening primarily because it's not the first time stories have used an iron maiden-esque device in such a way. I'm not sure about the journal entries though (never seen the movie so can't confirm it or if it's just another regular English idiom, like the time someone kept trying to say the "From the frying pan into the fire" was from a song when it's actually a very old English idiom).

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    • I can help with the locations thing, too. By the way, I made Template:Mo a while ago exactly for that purpose.

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    • @Mechemik: And you think I do have that time? :DD Let's just say we'll do it when we stumble on such cases because otherwise I can't really imagine it. And thy for clearing that Trivia bit.

      @1857a: That's so great! Soo you're gonna pick this up? :P

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    • lol, ok fine.

      @1857a: ah, ok that's what that was for. I've changed it a bit so it's now just "Mentioned" as saying "only" is redundant for our purposes.

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    • @1857a: If you read this, there is maybe-a-bit-cheeky question waiting for you up there.

      @Mechemik: OK real life took a bit longer but her I am. My main question is; why can't we have sections like Economy, People, Geography as independent as we now History for example. Wikipedia (and many other wikis) do that and it looks really good.

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    • Yeah see, I thought we already solved that by only adding it when we actually have enough information to do so. Right now, most pages rarely have enough to warrant it.

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    • Aaah so if there's they can be like I'm proposing here, is that it?

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    • Yes. We'd just need to figure out the order of where they go on the page.

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    • Alright. Let's do it. What's your proposition?

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    • Hmm, guess that depends. When you say "People" what are you trying to put under that? Because I think "Demographics" would work better overall (and make it less confusing with the "Notable people" header). That said, this is what I'm thinking right now:

      • History
      • Emblems
      • Geography
        • Climate
      • Locations
      • Economy
      • Demographics
      • Notable people
      • Culture
      • Military
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    • Yep, all good. Religion would obviously be a subsection of Culture but what about society stuff like Clans in case of Skellige (and, well, Mahakam too)?

      Plus another idea: how about having a field in kingdom box for Races? It would basically serve to list all the confirmed races in that state.

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    • Yeah, I'd put religion under either culture or demographics. As for clans, those would fit perfectly under demographics (as that's what that header encompasses).

      As for race field in kingoms, that's more iffy. On one hand it could get too generic (listing most major races like human, elves, dwarves, etc. making it redundant) and on the other what to do if we don't know? For example, we know Toussaint all but killed the elves off but does that necessarily mean no elves have settled down in the region ever since? (and of course we get into the citation parts again because games and books give different details).

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    • Alright sooo Religion --> Culture, Clans --> Demographics. Good. Will you put it somewhere now as our official layout to let new people know? Also-also-also, shouldn't geographical locations and cities/keeps etc be somehow divided?

      Hmmm, yea you're right. I mainly thought of this idea because the Cianfanellis i.e. dwarves are mentioned on Skellige in The Tower of the Swallow while completely left out in the game, see?

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    • I'd rather not further divide locations, especially as some may have no geographic but some cities and others the opposite. This way we can also keep the lists from getting too crazy.

      Well, the games kind of had to leave some stuff out to compress it down into 3 games :p

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    • Sure, understood. How about my other question?

      That indeed does make sense, but where should I potentionally put an info like this? :D

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    • Oh whoops, forgot >__< ok, updated guidelines now.


      I'm not sure exactlly. I mean to be me, it's not that important but maybe I'm reading it wrong.

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    • @Mechemik: Yeah right.

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    • OK so in The Lady of the Lake there actually is a mention of a ducal camerlengo, any advice on how can I/we use this info?

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    • Such as...? Unless an actual name is given, I don't think there's much we can do.

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    • Sounds right. The mention was when Angouleme got upset about Reynart and other knights-errant taking their pay at duchess' camerlengo's. Maaaaybe it could go under appearances of The Ducal Camerlengo?

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    • I mean if you want to, sure xD Though you'd have to make a distinction that it may not be the same guy.

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    • Will try. Speaking of making notes, would you add one on skald page regarding weird translator choice in ToC? Skalds, Hrafnir among them, are said to be with Kaedwenian Army in it but someone recently told me in English translation they're just bards or some such.

      PS: Congrats on becoming bureau ;P

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    • What do you mean by it being part of the Kadwenian army? Like, it was meant to originally only be a position within the army itself? Because yeah, English translation just treats it like a bard (but from Skellige).

      And thanks :)

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    • Umm, what I mean is skalds are not only these warrior-bards on Skellige but in Kaedwen as well. The problem comes with, as you yourself said, Time of Contempt translation by David French in which he mentions Hrafhir and other Kaedwenian Army skalds as bards. See what am trying to tell?

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    • Ah, interesting. Yeah, that is a bit confusing and not sure how to word that correctlly.

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    • Well neither am I but think it should be there.

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    • Plus after you do this or decide to not I made a little list of pages Id like you to move with the WitcherBot.

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    • Unfortunately, bots are all down atm except those who use python scripts. The latest Wikia update back in early Aug. changed the code so AWB bots aren't working and don't know when they'll get it fixed.

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    • That's so nice of them I can't even... what now my US friend :/

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    • Just have to wait for the next AWB update and hope it comes out within the next month :/

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    • They want to us to move to other platforms, don't they?

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    • It's feeling like that more and more, huh? Don't know if you kept up, but they're eventually going to change the wikia http name itself to something with "fandom" in it >_<

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    • Indeed it does. Ugh but whyy are they doing this. It really looks as if they purposefully chose updatea that majority won't like :|

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    • The Fallout wiki recently had a vote on whether or not to move itself to another host. Unfortunately, "do nothing" won by a narrow majority.

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    • @1857a: Well, in the end, they are just postponing the problem, aren't they?

      @Mechemik: Anyway I gathered as much about mammoths as I could and added it though it now looks a bit weird and think it could use some sectioning. Could you help?

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    • @Juraj: ok looking over now. Also a few notes I saw on other pages: The Unseen Elder isn't canon :p (the year template), alps are only red hair/eyes (unless you have other references for this, bruxae were always treated in game as black hair/eyes). Also those br tags are there for a reason :p without them it causes dboule break issues in mobile (with physical braks) or no breaks at all and looks like one big word. I also relabeled Alps as creatures because while we seen some individual lesser vampires show intelligence (Vereena, Orianna, etc.) most don't appear to show such (or want to anyways).

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      • Are you against mammoths or pages being not-overly-simplified?
      • He might not be canon but TW3 says a few times Conjunction happened about 1,5K years ago and since we know from BaW he was already an elder by the time he appeared in the world he must have been born before 230s Before Resurrection, right?
      • Adding those tags, just have one problem. Sometimes when I publish an edit, stuff like refs or galleries disappears. Ideas? It's really frustrating :/
      • Alps arent lesser. The book clearly states that alps, bruxae, katakans, nosferats, higher vampires, and mulas are highly intelligent (higher vampires possibly even more than elves, gnomes, and humans). Alps also appear in another Sapko book, Narrenturm, which isn't part of the Witcher but my point is they are a truly distinct and wise race in it. We do include goblins and trolls, why not these vampiric races? Ekimmas and fleders are clearly animals that am not going to argue about but those above...
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    • Yeah, but the idea is to treat the year template by what page it's on. As the games themselves tend to mess up timelines, it's better to put game related years/guesses pointing towards the game timeline, especially when we don't actually known what the game timeline looked like. But honestly I'd rather not put guesses/assumptions in infoboxes.

      I don't know why it does that weird tag issue to be honest. I've been trying to figure out a fix myself and it's just... not working >__<

      Ah, that's a stickler. May have to keep them under both race and creature then because the game treats them more like creatues. As for why trolls as a race, we already discussed that (while they have the mindset of children, they do show some mild intelligence and can communicate with other races). In the games, bruxae/alps are treated more like stereotypical monsters: attacking without being able to reason with them.

      Also, a bit of a conundrum and wanted to see what you thought: I'm trying to add the card icons for all the gwent cards but ran into a problem. The original idea was that by doing so, I'd then replace all the gwent card list pages with DPLs to both cut down on page size and to keep information consistent across all the lists as they'd pull from the same pages. However, I changed to code a bit so one just had to add a word into the infobox for the correct icon to show as there are 6 different deck colors and 9 different cards, making it easier for editors to show the correct one. However, I realized the way DPL is set up, this won't work for mixed deck lists (like close combat). So the way I see it there are two options: we separate out the lists by deck (so some pages could have up to 6 headers/tables but may only have 2 cards in each table) or just force people to put the full file name into the infobox to make the icon appear correctly in mixed tables. Thoughts?

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    • Alright. Got'ya. I'll try to steer clear from any assumptions.

      Meh, okay. I could live with "Creatures" and "Races" even though, shouldn't the books take precedence? What CDPR had done with this isn't really good and we should be careful to not enforce its canonicity or whatever. Think the better idea is to go by Sapkowski for who vampiric races (i.e. intelligent ones) are katakans, mulas, nosferats, alps, bruxae and higher vampires while vampiric monsters are fleders and ekimmas. Please?

      I'd probably go for the B option. After first reading those sentences it seemed liked the worse choice but come to think of it again, this option is in fact simpler and keeps pages from getting (can't believe to write such words) too complex.

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    • Well, it's not so much about canon with categories here but rather to show what creatures/monsters are in each game (that is, if anyone even looks at those categories. They really need to be cleaned up).

      Yeah, I was afraid of that too :/ B would be more work initially but would rather go with that than separate tables on one page.

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    • Okay so if am going on about doing all these katakan and nosferats etc. will you be OK if I put Race category in them as well? (aaaand while we're at it would add race category back to alps pls :P)

      Very true.

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    • sure, that's fine then

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    • Nice. And, please, will you?

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    • I'm confused, I thought the idea with the race template/category was to ues information from the books/canon as the games treat most of them as little more than beasts, otherwise it's just repeating information from the games section O.o

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    • Umm yeah true but then you have Hubert Rejk and the Fuck-Off Sewer Katakan who are both pretty much as Sapkowski would probably want katakans -- intelligent vampires who hide as humans. What do you propose?

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    • Honestly, I'd probably just fill it in with canon info and leave the rest out, even if it means little info there (wouldn't be the first time anyways as we have so little info on other creatures).

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    • I consider that too drastic, especially because of the age info which really is on pont. If higher vampires can live up to 6 hundred years and likely more then it makes perfect sense for katakans to live 220 at minimum.

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    • Well nothing says in the books "katakans live a third of the life of some vampires" xD

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    • But come on! Considering the longevity of vampires as a whole, this is more than likely true for books. Or something along similar lines. I mean the only thing we maybe are repeating is appearance description AFAICS.

      PS: Know this might be a bit stretched but the vampire tongue is in books mentioned as "Vampire language" once and then "Speech of vampires" another time, and not "Vampire Speech" so maybe it should be moved to one of those?

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    • Actually, we don't know the longevity of vampires in the Witcher lore canon wise except from what Regis reveals about himself (as a higher vampire). I know it's rather difficult keeping general supernatural lore out there separate from specific fictional worlds (for one thing, I'm pretty sure Regis doesn't sparkle :p )

      As for vampire language, I don't think there was one specific word to describe it. Honestly I prefer "language" in general over "speech" but that's because I'm used to referring to a particular tongue one speaks in as "language" and not "speech" (I don't know speech means for you, but generally here it means more along the lines of sound/pronounciation).

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    • Yup that is canon as hell xD I actually think there was an interview where Sapkowski confirmed all of his vampires are meant to be long-living but I can't seem to find it and my honest word will hardly suffice you heh :P

      Same here, speech is the spoken word that comes with the sound or the way someone says something (dialects, accents etc.). We in Slovakia usually use the word equivalent for a tongue ("jazyk") when referring to some language (like for example "Slovenský jazyk" literally means "Slovak tongue" but translates as "Slovak language"). What about "Vampire language" then?

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    • Yeah, if you can find that reference it'd be great!

      And sure, "vampire language" sounds fine to me :)

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    • @1857a: btw, I got something working for that empy space issue, though still working out the small parts, but let me know if it works for you. Just need to make sure you list the ingredient, file link, and amount for each one. Header defaults to "Crafting Requirements" but if you want to use it for dismantle you can, just put header as "dismantle". Let me know if you notice any weird issues with it like odd empty spaces (I think I fixed it but only tested it out a few times so far).

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    • Thanks, Mechemik :) That looks pretty nifty

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    • No problem :)

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    • @Mechemik: Will try my damnest tommorow.

      Eh, can you move it? Or shall I, tommorow morning. Am kinda destroyed now honestly.

      @1857: If you could also help spreading the nice Mo template that'd be amamazing :)

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    • It was probably some old newspaper and neither I nor my friends who know these things can find it :/ Sorry

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    • awww T_T

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    • Believe you me, I feel the same. Question is, what now?

      PS: Isn't the across the seas part of the world actually called beyond the seas in official translation, perhaps? I have no idea it just sounds better to me that way. If it is, please please correct it :)

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    • Yes, in the few books the area is mentioned, in English it's referred to as "beyond the seas".

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    • Thx. What about the vampire thing now?

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    • That one was already moved a few days ago.

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    • Wohohoohoo it seems like we will need a Thronebreaker template my dear Americano friend!

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    • What kind of template?

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    • The link one (such as TLW, BoE, Tw3 etc.)

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    • Alright, there's one now. Thx Bizi. Another question: I took it upon myself to reorganize the Order of the Flaming Rose page when it comes to references. How should I proceed? Cuz currently there are these conversations--refs and in-game-book--refs and am not sure whether to keep them or replace them with relevant game/expansion template references.

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    • Fixed name as to try and keep things shorthand (as the idea is you don't want to write out the full name :p )

      Personally I prefer to just use the game/expansion templates unless you see a reason to absolutely cite an in-game book?

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    • Neat.

      Yeah me too. So I actually did what I could with the article, changing wording etc. because we both know it needed that for some time :P What do you say now?

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    • btw, a temporary working version for the bot is finally up and working.

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    • Oh shieeet, nice, can I post a little list of stuff to move I managed to make in the meantime? :P

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    • Sure, go ahead and I'll get to it when I can.

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    • Hey, everyone. Do you think displaying merchant data like this is okay, or would it be better off in a table?

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    • I'd far prefer table format as it'd be easier to add images and data as needed. The crafting/dismantling template only works well because there's only a max of 6 items but still makes for a total of 18 data points while some merchants have easily 30+ items.

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    • Here we are! That small list of articles to move (some of which you might wanna discuss):

      • Jolie › Jolie Lanier (according to Sapkowski's alphabet)
      • Prince Vermuellen › Aristide Vermuellen (we did this with Tailles so, but would keep the redirect)
      • Prince Voorhis › Voorhis
      • Tremblay › Victor Tremblay (like with Schwann)
      • Gors Velen fish market › Fish market (Gors Velen)
      • Fish Market › Fish market (Novigrad)
      • Gaudemunda Thyssen › Gaudemunda Vermuellen (her name definitely changed with marriage, we can mention her original surname in intro next)
      • Klaudia Starhemberg › Klaudia Thyssen (same as with Gaudemunda)
      • Aldona Lamch › Aldona de Bogar (same as with Gaudemunda)
      • Jamurlak (region) › Yamurlak (not only used by CDPR in TWotW but also apparently official translation)
      • Jamurlak (city) › Jamurlak

      These you may want to discuss

      • Kalkstein › Adalbertus Kalkstein (we usually have 1st name + surname, as most Wikis/Wikias do)
      • Dandelion › Julian de Lettenhove (according to Sapkowski's alphabet)
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    • Is there confirmation that Aldona's name definitely changed with marriage, like her new name written down somewhere? The only mention I recall of her full name is in the Wedding invitation, which states it as "Aldona Lamch". I would support a move of "Aldona Lamch › Aldona" if her surname is contentious.

      For Dandelion and Kalkstein, I think that we shouldn't move these, because these are their most common names (I'm siding with Wikipedia's common name policy on this). Julian is constantly referred to as Dandelion or Dandilion in the books, and Kalkstein's full name is rarely mentioned in The Witcher 1. In the games, the overhead texts above both characters just say "Dandelion" and "Kalkstein".

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    • I agree with 1857a, shouldn't move Kalkstein and Dandelion as those are their more common names (same reason Lytta's page isn't officially Astrid Lyttneyd Ásgeirrfinnbjornsdottir but her true name does redirect to her page).

      I'd also refrain from moving people whose last names don't show any official changes or more well known by their first name. Like Gaudemunda, Klaudia, and Aldona are never revealed to officially changing their last names in the books (or Aldona's case, game). If going by children, that's not really unusual for a child to take their father's last name even if the mother keeps her's (and sometimes even the reverse: child could have their mother's name and not the father's). And as with Klaudia's case, she's mentioned more by her maiden name than her married name in the Dynastic descriptions, so if anything I'd keep that page the same but can add a note into the page.

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    • OK. Don't feel like discussing at all rn.

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    • With TB making Lyria and Rivia interesting to readers, do we perhaps have a nice quote for Lyrian Army article?

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    • Ah, I see, you picked up Ciri. Good luck with that!

      BTW: Something interesting, the Genealogies state she was actually born on Skellige. Shouldn't we at least consider having that as her nationality (even though yea she considered herself a Cintran but nevertheless spent more time on the Isles)? Or maybe we could make an exception and have both nationalities in there.

      PS: Pls add a link to Crach's mother to expanded family tree linked on Ciri, I tried but for some reason can publish the change (am also now thinking it'd be better Crach an Craite's mother but that's unimportant)

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    • Nationality's an iffy thing and I won't bore you with examples but let's just say being born in a specific country isn't always a guarentee that'll be your nationality/citizenship (US has soooo many different rules on this it's insane). For Ciri's purpose we could add a note to her page that she was born in Skellige, but in their world, her actual nationality appears to be Cintra (like her mother and grandmother).

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    • Hah, I always like these little comparisons we have becauae nationality is usually one of the firmest thing here in Europe. Either you are Slovak, or French, or both. In case of Ciri this gets more problematic as she was not only born there but spent like 75% of the time as well.

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    • Well it sounds more like 50% of her time (as it says she spent 2 of the 4 seasons there). But that is so bizarre to think about with Europe nationality xD Meanwhile US is like "ok if a royal has a baby here in the US, it's not an American it'd be the parents' nationality" or "if an American couple has a baby overseas it'd be American but could possibly have X citizenship based on other factors" and so forth. Gets more crazy when you throw in a a parent with a different nationality married to American and living overseas and they have children.

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    • Yeah, so much :D But I understand what you mean. Anyway, it's not even like her family is all Cintran - makes sense with royals - not even fully Nordling (grandfather Salmian who are just on the border of Nordlingsphere, father Nilfgaardian…). This is getting nuts, her overall origins.

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    • So? :>

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    • sorry what?

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    • what will be our final solution to Ciri's nationality?

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    • As I said, I'm more partial to keeping it as Cintra and just adding a note that she was born in Skellige.

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    • Hmmmmm I thought maybe we could consider it the other way around? You know with her as a Skelliger with Cintran note to it, though it may seem a bit far-fetched.

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    • Well the main reason is I firmly believe she's still a Cintran nationality: her family didn't start spending time in Skellige until Calanthe married Eist so it stands to reason if Calanthe had refused Eist's proposal (again), it's very likely Ciri would have been born in Cintra instead.

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    • This actually has a nice counter-argument: as Haxo says when instructing Geralt about general situation, it's made clear the Cintran royalty is looking for a close union with Skellige. This means thst if we completely exclude Eist then it becomes more likely Calanthe'd act on her distrust of Duny and Pavetta'd be pushed to marry an islander. Therefore Ciri'd even have Skelligan blood :D Know what I mean?

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    • Not really as Pavetta was already pregnant from Duny so Ciri wouldn't have been Skelliger by blood either, even if Calanthe had her marry a Skeliger xD

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    • Uf, indeed, you got me right there :D So we shall set on a note then?

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    • Yes. If you remember which character page it is that'll be more helpful than just saying "Dynastic descriptions"

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    • But of course. It's the first sentence of Cirilla entry (http-ed as /ciri).

      Btw: how about rest of the pages to move? I know we agreed on not-moving some, others you did but there're still ones like Jolie [Lanier]…

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    • Do you remember how it was worded in the books on some of them? In English, it's not very clear. It says "Count Lanier" which means it could be both ways: her father's first name (thus not knowing her last name) or his last name, which case his page should also be changed to "Count Lanier" instead of simply "Lanier".

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    • I could check this but while compiling the list I looked into the Sapkowski's Alphabet and there is "Lanier, […] - Redanian count" and under that "Lanier, Jolie - his youngest daughter"

      Am convinced we should refrain from using titles in page-names whenever possible.

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    • Ah ok.

      Well, my main concern is if more than one character shares the family name, I don't want there to be a character using up the "family name" page (like for most readers, if they search "Voorhis" they're likely looking for Morvran, not his father).

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    • True, that makes total sense. How about making this another little guideline?

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    • Sure, will need to figure out a better way to word that.

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    • That'd be for Count Lanier and young Jolie Lanier. About Prince Voorhis, hmmm, yea I agree with you. Maybe we should also have a "Morvran Voorhis' father" redirect to him.

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    • That could work too :)

      Also, I made some slight changes to the Quest 3 infobox. It'll require that the page name always be filled in, though this shouldn't be a problem as I think all of them were anyways. But the main thing is I've edited so quest icons now show up through a keyword in the infobox rather than us pasting the template. That should both fix the spacing issue caused by the resizing of the icons and should help down the road with some dpl pages if needed.

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    • Neat change, it aldo makes sense (mostly).

      So:

      • Jolie -> Jolie Lanier
      • Lanier -> Count Lanier
      • Prince Voorhis; stays but with "Morvran Voorhis' father" redirect

      Have I got it?

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    • Yeah that sounds good.

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    • Great. Can see you have a lot going so I'll wait with next thing (to tease a bit: Skelliger/Skelligan) :)

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    • Oh yeah, while on that, as I've been trying to get pages moved to be more consistent with nationality spelling where applicable (like keeping Koviri as that for game info but otherwise switching it over to Koviran or Kovirian) I didn't see it ever mentioned in the English books as "Skelligan" and can't recall it ever saying that in the games either, so was wondering where that came from O.o

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    • This is the "Spanish/Spaniard" case of demonym. At a few very rare occasions, TW3 uses Skelligan in dialogues when referring to items. Other times it's simply "Skellige [item name]" or Skelliger if person (apparently Skelligirl when female). Standalone G and TB makes it clear "Skelliger" is for people, "Skelligan" an adjective.

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    • Oh dear god why?! xD

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    • To show us how much they're about that lore :D Question is how we shall approach Skellige/Skelligan/Skelliger/Skelligirl :'D

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    • Or just want to make things even more confusing. I mean bad enough with different demonymns for the same locations, but now this? T_T and ugh, "skelligirl" really? This is what I like about English, so simple. We generally don't do gendered words xD

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    • I adore that about English too. Am pretty big into French now and while Slovak has gender differentiation, French takes it to a whole new level :DD

      Since it was uttered just once, how about considering Skelligirl a joke? Agnetha Skold wouldn't agree but making appropriate note would IMO be a killer.

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    • Yeah, that'd be fine with me xD And somewhow we need to add a note about the Skelligan thing too.

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    • Yup, ideas? :D

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    • Errr, not really? All I can think of right now is adding it to the note section for now which is eh, at best.

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    • Agree completely and unconditonally. Will you do it? I plan to revise Skellige article sometime soon so maybe after.

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    • Umm nice, but wouldn't it fit better as a ref to demonym part of the infobox?

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    • ok fixed

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    • Thx. Also why is Good Book article called The Good Book?

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    • Probably because in game the full name of the book is that?

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    • OK. Btw can you look into my sandbox? Id love to introduce this big change but dunno your opinion.

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    • Real quick question, is it supposed to be a separate page from the bestiary page? Because otherwise right now it would lead to a lot of confusion if that was to be the new Toad Prince page. I also wouldn't mind if they're 2 separate pages in this case (sort of like how Dettlaff technically has 2 pages as he also had a separate bestiary entry).

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    • Hmmmm, How about moving the bestiary stuff to a sub-page then? That could work.

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    • I'd rather not because officially, it's The Toad Prince bestiary in the game, with no other additional info on the Prince as a character entry.

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    • Before I construct any real argument --> How about having a little revolution this once? :P

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    • revolution? Like muskets and rifles? xD

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    • If you feel like it :DD I meant doing something we usually don't. For lore....

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    • Eh, for those kinds of pages where it's only game lore, I'd prefer to stick to the bestiary/game layout and use the info on the person as a separate page.

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    • Alright. Agree but I think I don't entirely understand how you wanna have it so feel free to use the stuff in my sandbox :)

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    • (putting the list here as Bizi and I are in the middle of smth in the main thread)

      Unofficial heraldry (not from books or any licensed adaptation):

      • COA Blue Mountains.png
      • COA Maribor bird.png
      • COA Dol Blathanna.png
      • COA Arcsea.png
      • COA Brokilon.png
      • COA Bremervoord1.png
      • COA Cidaris merged.png
      • COA Creyden.png
      • COA Ebbing.png
      • COA Emblonia2.png
      • COA Kerack var3.png
      • COA Redania ancient.png
      • COA Saskias Free State.png
      • COA skellige by tiltschmaster.png
      • COA Velhad.png
      • COA Zerrikania.png
      • Zerrikania emblem.svg
      • COA Gemmera Nilfgaard.png
      • COA Rowan Nilfgaard.png
      • COA Salm.png
      • COA Etolia Nilfgaard.png
      • COA Ebbing Nilfgaard.png
      • COA Geso Nilfgaard.png
      • COA Mag Turga Nilfgaard.png

      On a related note, if I send you a link to pdf file of The Witcher Role-Playing Game could you cut out the coats of arms included there? Because now by removing these we'll have a few states without emblems (and yea some are heraldically incorrect but Ruttou promised to correct them once he has time).

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    • Just making a note that I'm slowly working through the list.

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    • Alright.

      Another thing, why do we still have a Lyrians and Rivians category?

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    • Because there's still some characters in there I'm not sure how to categorize (especially Meve/Reginald's children who'd technically be both)

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    • Can help, sorta.

      • Gascon - Rivian
      • Odo - Rivian
      • Caldwell - Rivian
      • Gideon - Lyrian
      • Gustave - Lyrian

      Though gotta admit Anséis and Villem will probably have to remain. Hmm, and how about Lyrians + Rivians being subcategories?

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    • Juraj103 wrote: (putting the list here as Bizi and I are in the middle of smth in the main thread)

      Unofficial heraldry (not from books or any licensed adaptation):

      • COA Blue Mountains.png
      • COA Maribor bird.png
      • COA Dol Blathanna.png
      • COA Arcsea.png
      • COA Brokilon.png
      • COA Bremervoord1.png
      • COA Cidaris merged.png
      • COA Creyden.png
      • COA Ebbing.png
      • COA Emblonia2.png
      • COA Kerack var3.png
      • COA Redania ancient.png
      • COA Saskias Free State.png
      • COA skellige by tiltschmaster.png
      • COA Velhad.png
      • COA Zerrikania.png
      • Zerrikania emblem.svg
      • COA Gemmera Nilfgaard.png
      • COA Rowan Nilfgaard.png
      • COA Salm.png
      • COA Etolia Nilfgaard.png
      • COA Ebbing Nilfgaard.png
      • COA Geso Nilfgaard.png
      • COA Mag Turga Nilfgaard.png

      On a related note, if I send you a link to pdf file of The Witcher Role-Playing Game could you cut out the coats of arms included there? Because now by removing these we'll have a few states without emblems (and yea some are heraldically incorrect but Ruttou promised to correct them once he has time).

      Blue Mountains has kinda been confirmed on Gwent board.

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    • Juraj103
      Juraj103 removed this reply because:
      Some downright weird sh*t, for the lack of a better word, is going on with my net
      17:13, November 5, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • @Bizi: Great! We can keep it then. Back in Open Beta, I'd wager?

      @Mechemik: Just so it won't get lost, I left you a reply to our talk about Lyrians and Rivians category right above this big message.

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    • Not really

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    • Not sure I follow.

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    • Perhaps I didn’t understand what you asked...

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    • @Juraj sorry not getting what you're talking about the subcategories, can you explain that more?

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    • @Bizippo: I've just seen Scoia'tael board as it looked during the Open Beta so I was asking if you mean that.

      @Mechemik: If Category:Rivians and Category:Lyrians shouldn't be subcategories of Category Lyrians and Rivians.

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    • Ah yes that

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    • Ah hmm. Yeah, may have to do it that way (this will probably be one of the few exceptions where the sub categories are also in the main category).

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    • Yea that's what I meant.

      While we talk Lyrians: Berrik isn't Berric in Polish. He appears only in WGW, which was never officially translated, and there he's called Berrik (I originally used SMiki's anglicization). Hope I didn't confuse you.

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    • This is a little detail but for consistency: if we presume relation which adjective should we use? We have likely on Shilard and presumably on Hoog.

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    • The thing is I'm still iffy about putting that at all. In my head it's like saying "Joe Smith is likely related to Anna Smith" all because of a last name when "Smith" is actually a very common last name and likely not related.

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    • Sure but in a clan-based society, I doubt there'd be someone called Hoog and be completely unrelated to, let's say Brouver, even if distantly. Imagine Jimmy Tuirseach running around but have zero ties to An Skellig jarls. We are also talking here about dwarves who are fewer than humans. Similarly, Fitz-Osterlen is a noble surname.

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    • Except there are those who take on names of clans but not necessarily related to the rest. For example if someone marries into one (like Birna). That's what I'm getting at: a last name really just means they share the name but nothing foolproof to indicate they're related.

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    • Possibly, then?

      Oh and what about the little Berrik thing :)

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    • I'd say only put possibly if there's some indications they might be related (like how some might reference to the other or they do interact together, etc). Otherwise it gets into speculation.

      Also fixing Berrik now.

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    • Mboro's Metinna coa was also used by CDProjekt

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    • Eh, I'm personally iffy about those as I felt the developers just grabbed the closest thing and were like "well this one on the wiki is good enough".

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    • So was Attre

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    • I didn't include Mboro's Metinna COA for this very reason. Why did you remove it? Yeah sure it used to be unofficial but CDPR changed it just as Bizippo points out.

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    • Ok but I'd add a note to those that they were unofficial until they were used by the developers afterwards.

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    • Fine by me :)

      À propos Berrik, he somehow managed to get crowned in Rivia so his titles should include King of Rivia too (CDPR kinda confirms this by saying there were at least two personal unions before Reginald and Meve forged the united kingdom in one TB article, wanna link?)

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    • So what is the verdict for Thronebreaker cards?

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    • Yeah a link for that would be nice :)

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    • IMO the focus now should be to add Thronebreaker characters, monsters, locations, lore etc. and then maybe cards :)

      @Mechemik: Did you read my previous entry in this here discussion.

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    • Sorry must have missed that, which discussion?

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    • This one. Here's that message.

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    • Oh yeah, I saw that, that's why I was asking for the link to the source :)

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    • Aaaaaah, silly me, I thought your reply was to Bizippo. Here goes the link to an article in which CDPR basically says Lyria and Rivia were in the personal union at least once before.

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    • Ah nice! Though it does make writing their history more complicated xD

      Also deleting some more COAs that I don't recall being described or official, notably Pontaria, Angren, Sodden (and Lower and Upper), Malleore, and Barefield.

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    • That's why I decided to leave it to someone more fluent in wording such stuff in English :D

      Pontaria, Malleore, and Sodden appeared in CDPR games. What's wrong with my list?

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    • I'm confused, where did they appear? I don't recall them.

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      • Pontaria / Temerian Pontar -- TW2 and every adaptation that included Foltest (one of the COAs on his robes)
      • Malleore -- Reasons of State comics
      • Sodden -- TW3, Ciri family tree
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    • Ah, people just forgot to update the info on those pages then (and wow, I didn't even notice the Pontaria part on Folest's clothes, nice touch)

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    • Yup, love bits like this too. The only problem with the Pontarian coat of arms, for me, is that our version looks somewhat fabric :/ Like a piece of cloth if you understand what am trying to say.

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    • Yeah, that's the only one that remains of the weird versions of those (there used to be others but we replaced them or got rid of them).

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      • Hm, what shall we do?
      • Just like we set a guideline for location and character pages, what do you think should a proper title (Emperor, Elder...) page contain?
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      • I don't have the time, but if you can get someone to re-make in the same style as the rest (basically plain, no texture) that'd be best.
      • could you explain what you were thinking with that? Not sure what're getting at so an example would be nice.
      • Also, where's the link to the WGW stuff again?
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      • Gonna try.
      • If you can give me a list of things that should be included on every article concerning a title. To be concrete, am just now finishing Elder of Mahakam.
      • No problem putting the link here but, why do you ask?
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      • Ah, well we never really did title pages like that before so I wouldn't know what to include or how to go about doing it. Using wikipedia as an example, I'd say Description, History, Powers and Duties, Notable people, etc. to start.
      • I want to make sure I compare the COAs correctly. I'm trying to set up a template to make it easier (hopefully) but I want to make sure the right one is used in it.
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      • Cuz my current, unpublished version has the starting text then Ascension, Notable elders + References.
      • Uu, nice idea. Does this work? I sometimes have problems with google drive links.
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    • Yep that works :)

      Also, do you know which Geso/Gheso COA is the more official one? There's one with the sun and one without.

      Then there's also Cidaris: again I don't recall seeing the shell version anywhere O.o

      EDIT

      Eh, to make it simpler, just take a look through the Northern Kingdoms and Nilfgaardian Empire pages with locations/COAs and for the ones that are missing a COA but have one on file, just tell me if it's official or not (or if it has several, which one is more official) and site the source for me so I can add it to the page xD

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    • Done. Am kinda proud of how it turned out, not gonna lie.

      Alright. Dear lady, take a seat and wonder for here goes your list of glorious royal et imperial crests of origins most verifiable!

      • Cidaris
        • the shell version appears in TW3 (Ciri tree)
        • the fish version appears in The Witcher Role-Playing Game and I'd consider it more official since the previous one is just on a tree could be considered COA of Cidaris in times of Liam.
      • Cintra
        • all well but this one is redundant
      • Etolia
        • the one that remains is in the WGW
      • Nilfgaard region
        • appears in the games as such
      • Ebbing
        • The snake is a WGW thing, rivers canonized in TW3 (Ciri tree)
      • Venendal
        • comes from GWENT
      • Darlean
        • books-based
      • Geso
        • the one without the sun is more WGW-like

      Forgot anybody?

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    • Awesome thanks, I'll work through them and let you know if I come across others.

      Ok these are the ones I need confirmation on:

      • Ellander
      • Emblonia
      • Also for Geso, I found we had a red and a green version. Which one was it you were referring to as the correct one?
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    • Here it is:

      • Ellander
        • The one with the white banner is from Czech books
        • IIRC Mboro's was made canon in the tree (due to Ragbard, Bienvenu's husband)
      • Emblonia
        • Neither
      • Geso
        • Theoretically, neither, but green's closer
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    • Ok so think I got most of them in now. You'll see I've created a new template COA Flags. It'll default to flags unless you put "coa" in "type" and all you have to do is fill in "country" with whichever country you want a coa/flag to display (it'll also display some regions but I couldn't think of a better word to encompass all of them so country it is). It'll also work for real world flags provided we have the flag on file and it's in the template and will hopefully keep sizing and COA/Flags consistent across the wiki.

      The one kicker is if we ever update or change an emblem, the template will need to be updated (I'm sure there's some complex way to make it pull from a page's infobox but yeah, not going to dilve into that atm so just insert the file name into it please xD ) but it's a whole lot easier than going from page to page updating them instead.

      That said I found a few more that need info on:

      • Magne
      • Gemmera (not so much about it, but if you want to display the brown version as well on the page. If not, should probably get rid of them)
      • Anchor (I see it has a COA but not sure if you wanted to delete that one)
      • Vizima (I see it has a COA, is this official?)
      • Donimir (has 2, wasn't sure if you wanted to display both on his page or not)
      • Kaedwen, Kerack, and Maribor (have 1 or more variants, do you want to keep all of them?)
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    • Very nice idea. I like that so much. As for the list:

      • Magne = It's based on Magne Division flag that appeared in GWENT. Not described whatsoever.
      • Gemmera = In fact, I wanna display brown version in the infobox.
      • Anchor = Unofficial and IMO ugly (made by me so I can say such things xD).
      • Vizima = Based on COA of Temeria in times of Dezmod, not official though.
      • Donimir = We should just use the one we use now.
      • Kaedwen = Wait for Ruttou's versions of flag and COA, we'll use those.
      • Kerack = Eh, actually, neither. Have you ever seen the COA of Dauphiny in France? The dolphin should be in a position like that on Kerackian emblem as well (and in Czech books, it is)...
      • Maribor = Its COA description is vague, only stating red and silver lilies. Think should decide which interpretation to use.

      BTW: can you somehow add a COA field to Locations box similar to the one kingdoms have? We have few cities like Rivia or Novigrad which have emblems.

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    • Ok done. For Maribor, my preference would be for one of the diagonal versions (I don't think most would use a red/white X pattern).

      And added.

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    • How about COA Maribor var5 then?

      Umm, there has been a misunderstanding. I'd like for the COA to show just under the name (like in case of the kingdoms).

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    • That's fine.

      Well that's actually the reason I didn't want to add the COA to the location template: unlike the kingdoms, locations generally have a picture as the "main" part of the infobox, so if I add room for coa/flags, it won't look very good (like stacks of images on top of each other, creating a much longer infobox). That's why I added it like for characters instead.

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    • Why does it look relatively good on wikipedia than? And our Polish counterpart isn't far off either, checkout Rivia (miasto) for example.

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    • They also have an odd border between their image the coa/flags section. I just flipped it to show you but honestly I don't like how it loooks because now it's butting up against the main image.

      Also wikipedia doesn't look good. For example, see NYC page, images on images x_x

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    • Yeeee. Any idea how we could make it look better? Am really convinced it'd look better somewhere up.

      Ah, uhh NYC does look awful. I usually just look up pages about historical states on wikipedia so this is tad smth different.

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    • The only other way I can think of (besides going back to being a subsection like the character boxes) is to have it further down under an "Emblem(s)" heading (like the world/area maps are).

      And yeah, countries and cities use different layout formats on Wikipedia which is... not pretty xD

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    • Might just do the trick. Where precisely?

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    • I was thinking near the bottom, right above the maps.

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    • Sorry to interrupt the chat, but I just wanted to check Mechemik if you’ve seen the message I sent to you

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    • I did. That's why it's better to just add the Image Needed template to it as right now I'm working through other stuff :)

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    • Oh okay thanks

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    • @Mechemik: Alright. Can be :)

      PS: Could you move Radovit II to Radowit II? Same reason as Berrik, the comic was never translated into English soo he, in fact, appears nowhere as Radovit II. Plus we should delete Radovit I page, redundant (like having pages about Demavend I and Demavend II).

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    • Done

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    • @Juraj got a dilemma. So I'm trying to see about using DPL for the quest pages, the problem is that I do like having the symbols there that designate if it's unmarked or is a quest that will be cut off after a certain point in the game. There's no easy way around this that I can find at the moment when it comes to DPL other than it having it's own separate column or putting the symbols in the name part of the quest box itself. Or just do option 3 and leave them alone and fill them in manually. Your thoughts?

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    • Hmm, after giving it some thoughts: I'd be for option number two here, which is to put the symbols in the name section of the infobox.

      PS: Any idea what happened to Radowit's categories?

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    • Huh, looks like your last edit accidentally removed them, re-added.

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    • Ah so that happened, thx for re-adding it.

      PS: How do you feel about adding a motto section into familybox? Would like if there was one but there are very few families who could use it (Cintran royal family is the only I can think of atm) so...

      PPS: Plz move Military of Isles to Jarl of Skellige's troop via bot. Thank you!

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    • Eh, it's iffy. If they're the only family that we know if that has one, it might be better to make that the quote of their family page.

      And work on that.

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    • Gwent artbook says an Craites live by words "whatsoever ye do to my brethren, that I shall unto ye" -- another motto, perhaps?

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    • eh, hard to tell. Could be, but also could be just a way of life for them.

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    • I think Reginald's date of death is stated in books (?)

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    • @Bizippo: Nope, AFAIAA nothing of the sort is stated, just that he was already dead by 1267 (TB dialogues say he died in 1259) but please correct me if you have any evidence/calculation for 1267 :)

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    • Ah ok then, so did you put 1265?

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    • @Bizippo I'm about to start marking every image you uploaded of art with citations needed as a lot of them are still missing that <.<

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    • T.T can't you just add them in my place

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    • No :p

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    • @Bizippo: I put 1259 but if 1265 can be referenced from book source then tell me (cuz, you know, canon).

      BTW did you perhaps unlock Demavend lore in Gwent yet? I plan the big Grande edit of his page and want it to be as up to date as possible.

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    • Alas I'm not playing gwent anymore right now, too busy

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    • OK.

      Another thing: Ruttou, too, agrees the 4th guy on Hagge image is Vizimir *ehrm*.

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    • Alright but nothing states that

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    • Hheh, nothing states the others are Demavend etc. we only know by their appearance, isn't that right?

      PS: Do you plan to do the same as with Nilfgaardian dialect with Skellige, dryad, and ellylon ones?

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    • They don't have so many words.. plus ellylon and dryad are basically the same.

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    • Gnomish has 2. Also it kinda doesn't make sense to 've pages about those languages if their vocabulary is elsewhere, wouldn't you agree?

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    • Yeah but while gnomish is a totally different language, those you listed are almost the same of elder speech. I should paste the whole tabel, especially for dryad and ellylon.

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    • Skelligan is quite distinct tho.

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    • Skellige I can agree

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    • So I can count on you doing it, correct

      Also -- we have an article for Aedirnian Army.

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      • I'll see what I can do
      • I know, what's the point?
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    • Oh, alright… just saw that you didn't link to it…

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    • Where?

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    • Fableson.

      OT: What an opportunity CDPR wasted, not elaborating at least a bit on Demavend I and Demavend II.

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    • Mm I also have a bit of a dilemma about Rayla. During whole Thronebreaker she can be in Meve's company but this is a bit against lore isn’t it? Dunno what should I do with her page. How’s that big edit for Demavend going btw?

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    • @Mechemik why would you move 1267 timeline to games? Second Northern War as well as the date are in the novels.

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    • Basically, the way I do is if the person in question is canon or not. If it's a chraacter that only existed in the game(s) then I put it as non-canon as they didn't exist in the canon story. If they did though and it was known in the books then it would be considered canon.

      However, if it's an action only known in the games but not the books, it's considered non-canon action.

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    • Ok but then Northern War II paragraph should be even in Games Timeline.

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    • Sorry which paragraph? Haven't kept up with that page to know what's TB lore and what's book lore.

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    • No I mean there should be a 1267 paragraph in game timeline. Plus why Reginald's death is listed in 1259?

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    • Ah then yes, a paragraph does need to be added to the game timeline as well about it

      I was going by the year Juraj mentioned earlier in this thread

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    • Ah but Juraj wrote 1265 on Meve's page.

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    • Ok you two should get that sorted out which year as that's causing confusion (and I haven't played it yet so I can't say which year is the one)

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    • Yeah perhaps, but I still have to understand where the year is mentioned tho

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    • Well Juraj earlier said it was mentioned in a comment in the game but you'll have to ask where

      Also, keep the timeline data intact, even if it's not right with the rest of the games, just mark them as which game if needed.

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    • It's just so wrong and confusing..

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    • Yeah I know, it's partially why we separated it from the main timeline page, otherwise we had multiple dates everywhere for events T_T

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    • I would keep it just as a note on Battle of Brenna page.

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    • Reginald dying in 1259 comes from one TB vid I saw a long time ago. I never added 1265, ever.

      PS: does it even make sense for the city of Lyria to 've more folk than Vengerberg and only some 9-10K less than Novigrad

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    • Eh blame Cdpr for this :/

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    • Did you see my message on Rayla btw?

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    • Can't say I have.

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    • Bizippo wrote: Mm I also have a bit of a dilemma about Rayla. During whole Thronebreaker she can be in Meve's company but this is a bit against lore isn’t it? Dunno what should I do with her page. How’s that big edit for Demavend going btw?

      .

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    • @Bizippo: Interesting. I think this should be solved by us considering the Rayla-leaving (and all choices tbat lwad to it) canon and note the other possibility and its story in Notes section (like I did with Siegfried of Denesle after TWRPG came out)

      @Mechemik: I understand your point but still, I'd like to convince you on this birth-years matter. Works nice on Harry Potter Wiki…

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    • @Juraj except it's not very helpful when you think about it. For instance, we know Geralt's about 100 years old, but it doesn't really help to go "born sometime before 1170" especially when mages and witchers live far longer than people, and we eventually run into the issue with those who we can only guess at being at least 150 years ago (like many of Ciri's ancestors) and as we can't really assume when they had children (some had children well into their elder years, while some could have them very young like Amavet) it doesn't help to make assumptions like that.

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    • Also, I think I got it working but keep an eye on Quest3 infobox just in case. In short, I've done some formatting to shove quest icon to the left, quest name center, and region icon (the one that shows in the quest journal) to the right. It's not perfect (if there's no quest icon the region icon won't show, but as all quests should have one, that shouldn't be an issue). You just need to tell it the region (or in the palace case, "vizima") and it'll pop in the icon.

      I've also added type of quest to the infobox (automatically populates based on the icon so don't need to add those) and the new, super duper "cutoff point" to hopefully let people know if there is a point of no return, which quest it is. I'm still fiddling around if I should split some parts of the infobox into another subsection, but for now yeah.

      And all of this was done to hopefully get DPL working eventually for the quest pages (we'll see once I test it out some more).

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    • Alright, true, it hardly makes sense for witchers, elves, mages, dwarves etc. but in case of Tarrand, we can tell he was born in 1245 or shortly after because he is at least 17-ish in Gra Wyobrázni supplement that takes place somewhere around 1259. And and and, we can say he wasn't born before 1245 because he has no children in the SoS.

      As for your quest box adjustments:  holy cow, good work! And here I was thinking the infobox and page-layout for quest articles couldn't get much better. Soo do I understand correctly that the regions are to be put with small initials like "skellige" and not "Skellige"?

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    • @Bizippo: The other way around this time - have you seen my reply?

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    • Mh yeah but I’m not sure I understood you.

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    • @Juraj yeah but then it makes the text in the infobox longer than it should be, not to mention if we start that, those who don't know the thought process will start trying to add it to characters where there isn't a very good range. I'd just like to keep it neat and tidy with one year :)


      Also you can put it in caps as "Skellige", it's set to accept both lowercase and uppercase versions. The only stickler is that I think there's either a bug on my end or overall, as despite some saying "Novigrad" region, the icon is Velen's. Can you confirm that? If so, just keep putting Novigrad for those pages as it'll at least help with DPL purposes, even if the icon isn't technically correct.

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    • @Bizippo: Why won't you ask then? Heh

      @Mechemik: Understandable. You convinced me. As far as the Novigrad issue goes, yeah I can definitely confirm that (Contract: The Oxenfurt Drunk for example). Is it a temporary issue that will fix itself with time or how is it?

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    • @Juraj oh no, I meant if you can check when you have time in your game to see if it shows the correct icon or not. In my game, even the "Novigrad" region quests show the Velen icon, which is why I have it like that in the template right now. However, I don't know if it's a bug in my game that's causing it or not.

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    • Aaaah, I see. Can check it by the end of this month if it isn't too late for you.

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    • I am working on the Demavend article and have this tiny little question: should I keep the wording formal (as in did not, could not, was not, it is etc.) or no (didn't, couldn't, wasn't, it's...)?

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    • I'm ok with contractions if you wish to do that. I think the only reason some wikis don't do them is translation issues.

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    • Yep. Am asking mostly for consistency sake so, you tell me, what will our policy be.

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    • Well, I personally perfer contractions, makes it easier to read to me.

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    • Personally, I prefer not using contractions when writing articles. Although, I think that ultimately it doesn't matter whether you write with contractions or without, because either form is a valid expression of the English language. My opinion is that you should just do your thing, use contractions or don't, as long as it's all grammatically correct.

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    • Exactly, I don't think we should set a policy for such as we don't actively go and translate to other languages (the admins for those I'm sure do their own thing instead of copy/pasting from here).

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    • Right, great, thx guys!

      Bizippo: are we alright?

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    • Yeah why?

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    • Bah, the Rayla thing, but let us leave it behind because...

      LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I wholeheartedly invite you to the page about His Gracious Majesty King Demavend the Third!

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    • Nice. About Rayla I was waiting you to explain tbh.

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    • Dunno which part do you want me to reword.

      Also, I have this idea, what if we had an Etymology section for some kingdoms? Names of Cintra, Kaedwen, and Aedirn can be explained...

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      • How should I write her page
      • Like? I know no etymology of those you listed.
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      • Normally with Biography etc. etc. and when you come to the part where TB potentially conflicts the books, just write it as if Rayla left Meve (and note in Notes section how, based on Times of Contempt and The Lady of the Lake, that is the only canon possibility or whatever).
      • Kaedwen is derived from Caedwen, name elves used to call this forest area, which is comprised of caed meaning forest and suffix wen which means white in the Elder Speech. Therefore the kingdom's name can be translated as the White Forest.
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      • Ok
      • And that’s it? Just Kaedwen?
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    • An interesting thing I just learned while re-reading BoE, I think I found the official name of the Dwarven language is Dwarvish. It's used when Triss curses in it when she sees all the bruises on Ciri.

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    • @Bizippo: Aedirn is a name which comes from the first crowned queen of the realm, Aedireen. Before that it was a Duchy of Vengerberg, with Venger part coming from Aedireen's grandfather Prince Venger.

      @Mechemik: Interesting. I think it should be moved to Dwarvish then, shouldn't it?

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    • Ok

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    • @Juraj done :)

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    • @Bizippo: By the way, what are you planning now?

      @Mechemik: Great! So youre reading BoE again?

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    • All the things I posponed until now xD this week is kinda mess tho so don't know when. For now just minor edits.

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    • @Juraj yep, trying to get a better timeline idea.

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    • @Bizippo: Can perfectly understand

      @Mechemik: Good to know. I gotta correct you tho: when Foltest mentions his grandfather he doesn't mean Hugo but, actually, Griffin (his great-grandfather). He disliked Hugo and had a habit of leaving him out of genealogy, thus causing much confusion.

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    • @Juraj ah, is it more specific in Polish? Because in English they said "grandfather" which is used to mean, well "grandfather" (unlike "cousin" which can mean literally cousins or just someone who's so distantly relatd we know we're related just not sure how xD ).

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    • Heheh, yea.

      To your question: it's indeed specified in Dynastic notes that Hugo's son Medell and grandson Foltest disliked him. Foltest had a habit of omitting Hugo from the family tree and talked about "Grandfather Griffin" in the same breath as "Grandma Bienvenu" and "Great-grandma Clarissa", confusing many a courtier.

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    • @Juraj oh no, I mean in BoE, is it more specific about which person Foltest is talking about? As I said, he says "grandfather" and it really doesn't make sense in the context of his mother's line so more than likely I'm assuming he's referring to his Temerian line.

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    • He is talking about the Temerian line. Am I not being clear? Dynastic notes tell us Foltest disliked his grandfather Hugo (Bienvenu's 2nd husband) and therefore never talked about him. He instead used "grandfather" to refer to his great-grandfather King Griffin (Bienvenu's father).

      Now in BoE, he does mentions a grandfather but, again, he isn't talking about Hugo of Rivia but Griffin. If you need any more confirmation, dynastic note about Griffin says he removed priests from power. Ringing any bells?

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    • See, that's what I'm trying to get it: grandfather in English means 2 generations ago: for example if I say my grandfather through my mom's side, I mean my mom's father, not my great-grandfather (who'd instead be my mom's father's father). So in the English translation, it means he's referring to Hugo (even if he never says his name). That's why I was trying to figure out if there was a mis-translation, because unlike cousin (which can be used to mean diffrent degrees of relation) grandfather is more specific and not used to mean anyone past 2 generations :)

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    • What? Sorry am just hella confused by all this because no matter how hard I try to word it perfectly you don't seem to understand.

      This is all going through the paternal line. Hugo is indeed the father of the father of Foltest BUT, for some reason, Folest never ever liked Hugo. Instead he deliberately referred to his great-grandfather King Griffin (father of the mother of Foltest's father) as "grandfather". He does it by his own decision.

      In BoE, Foltest is in no way talking about Hugo but I fear I can't find any more words to explain :/

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    • Ok, so in English, the book wording is that Foltest literally says "grandfather", not "great-grandfather" and, in English, when we say grandfather it means we're talking about the 2nd generation specifically, nobody past that. If we wanted to instead refer to the 3rd generation (like Griffin) we'd instead say "great-grandfather" not "grandfather" if that makes it easier to understand. That's why I'm trying to figure out if there was a mistranslation (sort of like how you guys have specific words that mean "of the maternal line" like with Crach's mother while in English there was no word for that so we couldn't tell).

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    • This is more of Foltest's personal issue, not a mistranslation. He didn't like / hated / loathed Hugo, his paternal grandfather. Because of this, Foltest used to intentionally leave Hugo out of the family as if he never lived, never existed, and despite the fact that Hugo was his grandfather (2nd generation back), Foltest used the word grandfather (used to describe someone 2 generations back, of course) when talking about Griffin (who in reality was 3 generations back). He didn't, however, change "Grandmother Bienvenu" and "Great-grandmother Clarissa" (who was Griffin's wife).

      You know what I mean?

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    • Ah ok that makes more sense (if a bit weird on Foltest's part xD )

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    • Confusing xD Oh and can you tell me where was the problem? Want to improve my English as much as I can.

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    • Oh no, it just appears the confusion was Foltest being so petty he can't even just say "great-grandfather" xD

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    • @Mechemik: Apparently he was, heh. Are you goning to add Blood of Elves characters to Griffin now?

      @Bizippo: I kinda prepared the Skellige dialect article to make it easier for you ;)

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    • @Juraj done. Also I just realized we never got a COA version for Toussaint's BaW version.

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    • Yep. Gonna do it? Shouldn't be that hard since we have the flag. Also, Toussaintois COA by Mboro is kinda official as it appears on Ciri family tree.

      Also, can you do two things for me when it comes to Audoen?

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    • No, the problem is the COA in the game is actually laid out differently and there's some runes on the banner as well (don't know what it's saying though).

      And what about Audoen?

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    • @Juraj will add it next week, kinda busy right now sorry.

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    • @Bizippo: Understandable ;)

      @Mechemik: The 1st paragraph of his Bio, well, there's no firm reference for whats said there but it can be deduced. Could you word somehow that while it isn't confirmed that Arcsea has been a part of Kovir, we know for sure Hengfors was and since Audoen tore it from Kovir we assume he did so with Arcsea as well?

      2nd thing: can you please find the quote where Caldemeyn describes what type of king Audoen is?

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    • @Juraj ok if I can find it

      @Bizippo please use the Year template to link to years instead of manual linking :)

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    • @Mechemik: Thx. It's in the short story The Lesser Evil when Geralt talks to Caldemeyn and Libushe at their house. And the note?

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    • Ok

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    • Juraj103 wrote:
      *Kerack = Eh, actually, neither. Have you ever seen the COA of Dauphiny in France? The dolphin should be in a position like that on Kerackian emblem as well (and in Czech books, it is)...

      Neither Dauphiny's or Czech dolphin is nageant. Sapkowski is actually pretty clear with this particular COA since he's given the exact French (!) description of it.

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    • D’or, dauphin nageant d’azur, lorré, peautré, oreillé, barbé et crêté de gueules.

      Here is the standard dauphin nageant, and here is it's variant with turned tail.

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    • Wooo seen the video of special effects of netflix series? :OOO

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    • @SMiki55: Nothing escapes you, right? :D But yeah, gotta admit I overlooked that part. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

      @Bizippo: Googled it after reading your message and it looks great buut I fear it might be fake because my eye caught smth that doesnt really make sense -- a soldier bearing a shield with the symbol of the School of the Wolf on it. 

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    • Thought it waa a golden sun... and it looks a bit too well made to be a fake right?

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    • The same Hungarian studio made some stuff for The Witcher 3, maybe they just reused some assets.

      Juraj, after thinking a bit: what about using standard nageant in the flag, and the turned-tail one in the COA (fits the shield better)? I know, the description doesn't mention queue contournee, but honestly it's hard to believe that Sapko wanted the dolphin not to fit the shield

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    • Isn't there a piture of it actually done by Jana?

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    • @Bizippo: Well, SMiki could be right and yeah it does look to good to be fake. I just wanted to be careful before hyping up. CAN WE HYPE? :D

      @SMiki55: Yep, sure, I agree.

      @Mechemik: What do you mean? Also also you didn't see my reply about Audoen right?

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    • Well no now I’m dubious xD

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    • @Mechemik: *bumping*

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    • There.

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    • Thx.

      Another thing: I feel like Vampire Language and Gnomish Speech should be moved to "Vampire language" and "Gnomish language" respectively until we get their official name in some source.

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    • @Mechemik: that was to you :)

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    • Done. Speaking of which, I've been meaning to bring this up for awhile: what do you think about moving the sign names to just the name itself (without "sign" after it, like "Aard" instead of "Aard sign")? we'd still have the redirects to it because "X sign" is still used pretty often, but I don't see the point in having the main name as a disambig when it's really just linking to the attribute pages.

      Also want to see something cool I just learned? Check out the standalone Gwent page :p If you like it, we can roll it out for the major game pages (obivously I wouldn't recommend it for a lot of pages, just a handful of important ones).

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    • Nice, thank you. While we’re still on the topic of languages, could you maybe make a language infobox? It could include sections like script, used in/by, derrived from (for languages based on the Elder Speech) etc.

      Signs: oh I wholeheartedly agree. Even meant to bring this up once but forgot.

      Downright glorious! Can I just express how grateful I’m for all your work?

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    • Eh, not sure if languages deserve an infobox to be honest. There's so few actual ones (not counting dialects) and most of the info is very basic and could be summed up in a couple sentences on the pages themslves (mostly concerning that the majority are based on Elder Speech).

      As for all the signs, the trees are now on the same page as their skills page and also went and move the others as well so no more weird separate tree/skills pages.

      And thanks :)

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    • Yeah when you put it this way, I agree. It might be better to wait untill there’s more.

      Another thing I’ve been meaning to bring up: why isn’t the Mo template more widespread? I think it’d be better to use just that one in order to avoid writing the entire “small mentioned only” stuff:

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    • I thought it was in use quite a bit? I ran the bot a few weeks ago to fix those O.o

      Also I just realized, where did you get some of the info for Siegfried's parents? I can't recall off the top of my head it being confirmed that Eyck was actually his father (and I don't remember where his mother was mentioned).

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    • Okey-dokey. Wasn’t aware of that :)

      All of that comes from the Thronebreaker where Eyck’s (optionally) a prominent character.

      PS: ak currently pretty away from my PC and adding a new page via phone could frankly end in dissaster so, can you add a page about the “Lords & Lands” supplement for The Witcher Role-Playing Game?

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    • I could create the page itself but I have no content to add to it xD

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    • Oh but ofcourse, silly me... here

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    • Thx! Also I just noticed you’ve deleted the page about seven liberal arts, why?

      PS: Gnome page refers to Cremora Citadel too ;)

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    • In Polish version of Thronebreaker, there is the Jawina river near Rastburg. Is it Yavina in English edition?

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    • Yep. Why?

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    • Just asking, I love lore

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    • @Juraj because it was just text taken straight from Wikipedia with no witcher lore on it (other than that Dandelion had studied them). Therefore, unnless there's actual more lore behind it, it's better to just directly link to the Wikipedia page regarding them than create a separate page here.

      And thanks :)

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    • Oh, okay then.

      PS: Can I ask one more gnomish things before I finally shut up about them?

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    • lol sure

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    • I noticed that in Grave hag bestiary entry there’s a mention about cremation being gnomish custom. Are you able to include it somehow?

      Oh and I’ve also been thinking that we might move the “Culture” sections on race pages to “Society” like we have it on Nordlings. IMO fits better...

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    • Done.

      Um, what do you mean exactly? Nordling is using both headers.

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    • Yeah sorry um... I didn’t notice.

      Another thing: Where is this “newer languages” and “older languages” dividing coming from? Can’t really find it within books.

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    • I'm not exactly sure, wasn't looking for that information on reading. My best guess is it's based on the races: the older ones (like the gnomes and dwarves) are probably considered the older ones, but not sure.

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    • Yeah well that’s nice but if it’s really the case then it’s kinda unofficial and therefore redundant, isn’t it?

      PS: Merry Christmas and happy holidays :)

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    • Probably, until we can find any references for it. And thanks :)

      Also, I'm trying to clean up the names/redirects for the Brotherhood, Council, and Chapter, so was going through the books to doublecheck and I noticed a couple things. 1) the full name of the Council is never stated in the books (English only has Council of Wizards, and in SoS, it puts it informally as "Chapter of sorcerers"). The only thing I can find is from the games in the book Diary of a Fire Swallower. Can you confirm that?

      Also, I've edited the mention of "conclave" because looking at the few times it's mentioned (only in ToC) conclave is used more to mean the meeting that was to take place on Thanedd than the name of the groups themselves, if that makes sense, and only in the games does it treat to mean the Chapter.

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    • The Chapter of sorcerers is the Brotherhood’s other body (aka the Chapter of the Gift and the Art). As for the “Supreme” part... yeah I can’t remember where that one’s from either but am quite sure it doesn’t come from CDPR. Gonna search.

      Are u doing some sorta overall clean-up?

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    • Yeah, right now just going through the redirects list to make sure everything is correct in there and weed out some useless ones (like weird capitalizations and such).

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    • Another idea; what if we moved the journal entries and descriptive book quotes to a “Quotes” sub-pages in case of races? I think it would look really neat.

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    • I'd rather not honestly, as most would only have a paragraph or two there making the separate page rather useless.

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    • Any other idea? I’d really prefer for them to not be there in a current way. Sorta breaks the immersion we strive for.

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    • I'm ok with them there. There's always going to be some break in it and most pages aren't able to read like a "story". We've already been down this path before remember, when you wanted to split canon/game info with character pages and then decided against it when I showed an example with Triss? :p

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    • Ah... yea, well, I do xD

      Since we’re talking about the races tho; why don’t we consider vodyanoi a race on the Race page? Their civilization and culture is certainly more complex than that of trolls heheh.

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    • Oh yeah, good point, they should be there.

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    • @Mechemik: Alright. I plan to remake their article into a proper race one so be possibly ready for some questions.

      @Bizippo: Hope you’re not trying to be sneaky ;) Merry Christmas to you as well, pal.

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    • Ty ^^ merry christmas

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    • So first of the vodyanoy questions: if a race can possibly learn the Common to talk with other sentient races but otherwise mostly uses their own language, should I still put Common in their infobox?

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    • I'd say put any lang. they're known to be capable of speaking.

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    • Alright. All done. Two things:

      • Do we have any... more appropriate image?
      • Vodyanoi is in games and Season of Storms has it as Vodyanoy, right?
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    • Supreme Council is apparently translation from Polish of "Najwyższa Rada"

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