continuing off the last thread, for me, that Etolia section read more of an overview, as it's describing all 3 at once (geography, climate, and touches on it's main function within the Empire, like supplying food). Otherwise, divided out, you'd be back to each section only being one sentence: climate being it has harsh winter, geography just that it's very fertile, etc.
A question about game location pages: why is the journal entry the only thing that is allowed to go under game headers? I think this section should also include other gameplay attributes, perhaps like a description of the location's layout in-game, notable loot, and interactable objects, to name a few. If it's relevant to the game, why not put it under the corresponding game header instead of the notes?
That's more to do with locations that have journal entries, which are usually kingdoms (like Temeria, Redania, etc.) and therefore shouldn't have any gameplay info beyond the journal. Is there a page you have in mind that's like this?
Ah, Kaer Morhen is a special case that I still don't know what to do about. You've probably noticed there are separate article pages for locations within the keep from Tw1. I can't remember how it was in the first game, but I feel those should be combined somehow if possible.
As for others, it should be fine to list gameplay info within its appropriate game header. The original idea was back when Juraj wished to try and switch character bios around to not have "Tw1" or "Film" separation headers but to read more like one flowing story, and that bled over to major kingdoms as they had journal entries on top of all the other lore information. But, for smaller locations (like the Royal Palace) it should be fine to list the appropriate game info in each game header (and of course, if it only appears in one game, doesn't even need a game header). One caution though, especially with Tw3, I'd refrain from listing lootable containers unless it's a location with a possible diagram spawn point.
Maybe wouldn't continue arguing with you but the way text was written by Gra's authors indicates economical description so... plus I think it makes more sense as it talks about where and what the country mainly produces. I planned to expand it with info about fishering ftom TWRPG upon return.
Also, what about the rest of what I wrote in a previous message?
@Juraj: wich part were you referring to? I thought the last message was all about the Etolia bit. And regarding that, economics is more, how do they make they money, importing/exporting, what they manufacture, etc.
@Mechemik: Studying economics + trade so I know that xD Problem's we dunno much more about Etolia so I left it as it was. Recently TWRPG came out. If I added its mentions of sea trade and unique fishing stuff (Etolian white belly fish), could it remain as "Economy"?
And no it wasn't about Etolia, only the sentence in brackets was :)
Whoops, forgot. Could you re-state what it was you were asking about? Because I keep reading the message and it's read to me the same as the economics/culture part.
Because if you notice, we don't do "mentioned" for any locations. If you want to change that though, that's going to be another big project, going through and fixing all of them.
Because the extra bits should go in Easter Eggs page and just keep it concise on the other pages.
Think you mean "you" because I really don't have time to go through and fix all locations like that xD
Oh I see what you're referring to now. That one Avenger note I was shortening primarily because it's not the first time stories have used an iron maiden-esque device in such a way. I'm not sure about the journal entries though (never seen the movie so can't confirm it or if it's just another regular English idiom, like the time someone kept trying to say the "From the frying pan into the fire" was from a song when it's actually a very old English idiom).
@Mechemik: And you think I do have that time? :DD Let's just say we'll do it when we stumble on such cases because otherwise I can't really imagine it. And thy for clearing that Trivia bit.
@1857a: That's so great! Soo you're gonna pick this up? :P
@1857a: If you read this, there is maybe-a-bit-cheeky question waiting for you up there.
@Mechemik: OK real life took a bit longer but her I am. My main question is; why can't we have sections like Economy, People, Geography as independent as we now History for example. Wikipedia (and many other wikis) do that and it looks really good.
Yeah see, I thought we already solved that by only adding it when we actually have enough information to do so. Right now, most pages rarely have enough to warrant it.
Hmm, guess that depends. When you say "People" what are you trying to put under that? Because I think "Demographics" would work better overall (and make it less confusing with the "Notable people" header). That said, this is what I'm thinking right now:
Yep, all good. Religion would obviously be a subsection of Culture but what about society stuff like Clans in case of Skellige (and, well, Mahakam too)?
Plus another idea: how about having a field in kingdom box for Races? It would basically serve to list all the confirmed races in that state.
Yeah, I'd put religion under either culture or demographics. As for clans, those would fit perfectly under demographics (as that's what that header encompasses).
As for race field in kingoms, that's more iffy. On one hand it could get too generic (listing most major races like human, elves, dwarves, etc. making it redundant) and on the other what to do if we don't know? For example, we know Toussaint all but killed the elves off but does that necessarily mean no elves have settled down in the region ever since? (and of course we get into the citation parts again because games and books give different details).
Alright sooo Religion --> Culture, Clans --> Demographics. Good. Will you put it somewhere now as our official layout to let new people know?
Also-also-also, shouldn't geographical locations and cities/keeps etc be somehow divided?
Hmmm, yea you're right. I mainly thought of this idea because the Cianfanellis i.e. dwarves are mentioned on Skellige in The Tower of the Swallow while completely left out in the game, see?
I'd rather not further divide locations, especially as some may have no geographic but some cities and others the opposite. This way we can also keep the lists from getting too crazy.
Well, the games kind of had to leave some stuff out to compress it down into 3 games :p
Sounds right. The mention was when Angouleme got upset about Reynart and other knights-errant taking their pay at duchess' camerlengo's. Maaaaybe it could go under appearances of The Ducal Camerlengo?
Will try. Speaking of making notes, would you add one on skald page regarding weird translator choice in ToC? Skalds, Hrafnir among them, are said to be with Kaedwenian Army in it but someone recently told me in English translation they're just bards or some such.
What do you mean by it being part of the Kadwenian army? Like, it was meant to originally only be a position within the army itself? Because yeah, English translation just treats it like a bard (but from Skellige).
Umm, what I mean is skalds are not only these warrior-bards on Skellige but in Kaedwen as well. The problem comes with, as you yourself said, Time of Contempt translation by David French in which he mentions Hrafhir and other Kaedwenian Army skalds as bards. See what am trying to tell?
Unfortunately, bots are all down atm except those who use python scripts. The latest Wikia update back in early Aug. changed the code so AWB bots aren't working and don't know when they'll get it fixed.
It's feeling like that more and more, huh? Don't know if you kept up, but they're eventually going to change the wikia http name itself to something with "fandom" in it >_<
@1857a: Well, in the end, they are just postponing the problem, aren't they?
@Mechemik: Anyway I gathered as much about mammoths as I could and added it though it now looks a bit weird and think it could use some sectioning. Could you help?
@Juraj: ok looking over now. Also a few notes I saw on other pages: The Unseen Elder isn't canon :p (the year template), alps are only red hair/eyes (unless you have other references for this, bruxae were always treated in game as black hair/eyes). Also those br tags are there for a reason :p without them it causes dboule break issues in mobile (with physical braks) or no breaks at all and looks like one big word. I also relabeled Alps as creatures because while we seen some individual lesser vampires show intelligence (Vereena, Orianna, etc.) most don't appear to show such (or want to anyways).
Are you against mammoths or pages being not-overly-simplified?
He might not be canon but TW3 says a few times Conjunction happened about 1,5K years ago and since we know from BaW he was already an elder by the time he appeared in the world he must have been born before 230s Before Resurrection, right?
Adding those tags, just have one problem. Sometimes when I publish an edit, stuff like refs or galleries disappears. Ideas? It's really frustrating :/
Alps arent lesser. The book clearly states that alps, bruxae, katakans, nosferats, higher vampires, and mulas are highly intelligent (higher vampires possibly even more than elves, gnomes, and humans). Alps also appear in another Sapko book, Narrenturm, which isn't part of the Witcher but my point is they are a truly distinct and wise race in it. We do include goblins and trolls, why not these vampiric races? Ekimmas and fleders are clearly animals that am not going to argue about but those above...
Yeah, but the idea is to treat the year template by what page it's on. As the games themselves tend to mess up timelines, it's better to put game related years/guesses pointing towards the game timeline, especially when we don't actually known what the game timeline looked like. But honestly I'd rather not put guesses/assumptions in infoboxes.
I don't know why it does that weird tag issue to be honest. I've been trying to figure out a fix myself and it's just... not working >__<
Ah, that's a stickler. May have to keep them under both race and creature then because the game treats them more like creatues. As for why trolls as a race, we already discussed that (while they have the mindset of children, they do show some mild intelligence and can communicate with other races). In the games, bruxae/alps are treated more like stereotypical monsters: attacking without being able to reason with them.
Also, a bit of a conundrum and wanted to see what you thought: I'm trying to add the card icons for all the gwent cards but ran into a problem. The original idea was that by doing so, I'd then replace all the gwent card list pages with DPLs to both cut down on page size and to keep information consistent across all the lists as they'd pull from the same pages. However, I changed to code a bit so one just had to add a word into the infobox for the correct icon to show as there are 6 different deck colors and 9 different cards, making it easier for editors to show the correct one. However, I realized the way DPL is set up, this won't work for mixed deck lists (like close combat). So the way I see it there are two options: we separate out the lists by deck (so some pages could have up to 6 headers/tables but may only have 2 cards in each table) or just force people to put the full file name into the infobox to make the icon appear correctly in mixed tables. Thoughts?
Alright. Got'ya. I'll try to steer clear from any assumptions.
Meh, okay. I could live with "Creatures" and "Races" even though, shouldn't the books take precedence? What CDPR had done with this isn't really good and we should be careful to not enforce its canonicity or whatever. Think the better idea is to go by Sapkowski for who vampiric races (i.e. intelligent ones) are katakans, mulas, nosferats, alps, bruxae and higher vampires while vampiric monsters are fleders and ekimmas. Please?
I'd probably go for the B option. After first reading those sentences it seemed liked the worse choice but come to think of it again, this option is in fact simpler and keeps pages from getting (can't believe to write such words) too complex.
Well, it's not so much about canon with categories here but rather to show what creatures/monsters are in each game (that is, if anyone even looks at those categories. They really need to be cleaned up).
Yeah, I was afraid of that too :/ B would be more work initially but would rather go with that than separate tables on one page.
Okay so if am going on about doing all these katakan and nosferats etc. will you be OK if I put Race category in them as well? (aaaand while we're at it would add race category back to alps pls :P)
I'm confused, I thought the idea with the race template/category was to ues information from the books/canon as the games treat most of them as little more than beasts, otherwise it's just repeating information from the games section O.o
Umm yeah true but then you have Hubert Rejk and the Fuck-Off Sewer Katakan who are both pretty much as Sapkowski would probably want katakans -- intelligent vampires who hide as humans. What do you propose?
Honestly, I'd probably just fill it in with canon info and leave the rest out, even if it means little info there (wouldn't be the first time anyways as we have so little info on other creatures).
I consider that too drastic, especially because of the age info which really is on pont. If higher vampires can live up to 6 hundred years and likely more then it makes perfect sense for katakans to live 220 at minimum.
But come on! Considering the longevity of vampires as a whole, this is more than likely true for books. Or something along similar lines. I mean the only thing we maybe are repeating is appearance description AFAICS.
PS: Know this might be a bit stretched but the vampire tongue is in books mentioned as "Vampire language" once and then "Speech of vampires" another time, and not "Vampire Speech" so maybe it should be moved to one of those?
Actually, we don't know the longevity of vampires in the Witcher lore canon wise except from what Regis reveals about himself (as a higher vampire). I know it's rather difficult keeping general supernatural lore out there separate from specific fictional worlds (for one thing, I'm pretty sure Regis doesn't sparkle :p )
As for vampire language, I don't think there was one specific word to describe it. Honestly I prefer "language" in general over "speech" but that's because I'm used to referring to a particular tongue one speaks in as "language" and not "speech" (I don't know speech means for you, but generally here it means more along the lines of sound/pronounciation).
Yup that is canon as hell xD I actually think there was an interview where Sapkowski confirmed all of his vampires are meant to be long-living but I can't seem to find it and my honest word will hardly suffice you heh :P
Same here, speech is the spoken word that comes with the sound or the way someone says something (dialects, accents etc.). We in Slovakia usually use the word equivalent for a tongue ("jazyk") when referring to some language (like for example "Slovenský jazyk" literally means "Slovak tongue" but translates as "Slovak language"). What about "Vampire language" then?
@1857a: btw, I got something working for that empy space issue, though still working out the small parts, but let me know if it works for you. Just need to make sure you list the ingredient, file link, and amount for each one. Header defaults to "Crafting Requirements" but if you want to use it for dismantle you can, just put header as "dismantle". Let me know if you notice any weird issues with it like odd empty spaces (I think I fixed it but only tested it out a few times so far).
Believe you me, I feel the same. Question is, what now?
PS: Isn't the across the seas part of the world actually called beyond the seas in official translation, perhaps? I have no idea it just sounds better to me that way. If it is, please please correct it :)
Alright, there's one now. Thx Bizi. Another question: I took it upon myself to reorganize the Order of the Flaming Rose page when it comes to references. How should I proceed? Cuz currently there are these conversations--refs and in-game-book--refs and am not sure whether to keep them or replace them with relevant game/expansion template references.
Yeah me too. So I actually did what I could with the article, changing wording etc. because we both know it needed that for some time :P What do you say now?
I'd far prefer table format as it'd be easier to add images and data as needed. The crafting/dismantling template only works well because there's only a max of 6 items but still makes for a total of 18 data points while some merchants have easily 30+ items.
Is there confirmation that Aldona's name definitely changed with marriage, like her new name written down somewhere? The only mention I recall of her full name is in the Wedding invitation, which states it as "Aldona Lamch". I would support a move of "Aldona Lamch › Aldona" if her surname is contentious.
For Dandelion and Kalkstein, I think that we shouldn't move these, because these are their most common names (I'm siding with Wikipedia's common name policy on this). Julian is constantly referred to as Dandelion or Dandilion in the books, and Kalkstein's full name is rarely mentioned in The Witcher 1. In the games, the overhead texts above both characters just say "Dandelion" and "Kalkstein".
I agree with 1857a, shouldn't move Kalkstein and Dandelion as those are their more common names (same reason Lytta's page isn't officially Astrid Lyttneyd Ásgeirrfinnbjornsdottir but her true name does redirect to her page).
I'd also refrain from moving people whose last names don't show any official changes or more well known by their first name. Like Gaudemunda, Klaudia, and Aldona are never revealed to officially changing their last names in the books (or Aldona's case, game). If going by children, that's not really unusual for a child to take their father's last name even if the mother keeps her's (and sometimes even the reverse: child could have their mother's name and not the father's). And as with Klaudia's case, she's mentioned more by her maiden name than her married name in the Dynastic descriptions, so if anything I'd keep that page the same but can add a note into the page.
Ah, I see, you picked up Ciri. Good luck with that!
BTW: Something interesting, the Genealogies state she was actually born on Skellige. Shouldn't we at least consider having that as her nationality (even though yea she considered herself a Cintran but nevertheless spent more time on the Isles)? Or maybe we could make an exception and have both nationalities in there.
PS: Pls add a link to Crach's mother to expanded family tree linked on Ciri, I tried but for some reason can publish the change (am also now thinking it'd be better Crach an Craite's mother but that's unimportant)
Nationality's an iffy thing and I won't bore you with examples but let's just say being born in a specific country isn't always a guarentee that'll be your nationality/citizenship (US has soooo many different rules on this it's insane). For Ciri's purpose we could add a note to her page that she was born in Skellige, but in their world, her actual nationality appears to be Cintra (like her mother and grandmother).
Hah, I always like these little comparisons we have becauae nationality is usually one of the firmest thing here in Europe. Either you are Slovak, or French, or both. In case of Ciri this gets more problematic as she was not only born there but spent like 75% of the time as well.
Well it sounds more like 50% of her time (as it says she spent 2 of the 4 seasons there). But that is so bizarre to think about with Europe nationality xD Meanwhile US is like "ok if a royal has a baby here in the US, it's not an American it'd be the parents' nationality" or "if an American couple has a baby overseas it'd be American but could possibly have X citizenship based on other factors" and so forth. Gets more crazy when you throw in a a parent with a different nationality married to American and living overseas and they have children.
Yeah, so much :D But I understand what you mean. Anyway, it's not even like her family is all Cintran - makes sense with royals - not even fully Nordling (grandfather Salmian who are just on the border of Nordlingsphere, father Nilfgaardian…). This is getting nuts, her overall origins.
Hmmmmm I thought maybe we could consider it the other way around? You know with her as a Skelliger with Cintran note to it, though it may seem a bit far-fetched.
Well the main reason is I firmly believe she's still a Cintran nationality: her family didn't start spending time in Skellige until Calanthe married Eist so it stands to reason if Calanthe had refused Eist's proposal (again), it's very likely Ciri would have been born in Cintra instead.
This actually has a nice counter-argument: as Haxo says when instructing Geralt about general situation, it's made clear the Cintran royalty is looking for a close union with Skellige. This means thst if we completely exclude Eist then it becomes more likely Calanthe'd act on her distrust of Duny and Pavetta'd be pushed to marry an islander. Therefore Ciri'd even have Skelligan blood :D Know what I mean?
Not really as Pavetta was already pregnant from Duny so Ciri wouldn't have been Skelliger by blood either, even if Calanthe had her marry a Skeliger xD
Do you remember how it was worded in the books on some of them? In English, it's not very clear. It says "Count Lanier" which means it could be both ways: her father's first name (thus not knowing her last name) or his last name, which case his page should also be changed to "Count Lanier" instead of simply "Lanier".
I could check this but while compiling the list I looked into the Sapkowski's Alphabet and there is "Lanier, […] - Redanian count" and under that "Lanier, Jolie - his youngest daughter"
Am convinced we should refrain from using titles in page-names whenever possible.
Well, my main concern is if more than one character shares the family name, I don't want there to be a character using up the "family name" page (like for most readers, if they search "Voorhis" they're likely looking for Morvran, not his father).
That'd be for Count Lanier and young Jolie Lanier. About Prince Voorhis, hmmm, yea I agree with you. Maybe we should also have a "Morvran Voorhis' father" redirect to him.
Also, I made some slight changes to the Quest 3 infobox. It'll require that the page name always be filled in, though this shouldn't be a problem as I think all of them were anyways. But the main thing is I've edited so quest icons now show up through a keyword in the infobox rather than us pasting the template. That should both fix the spacing issue caused by the resizing of the icons and should help down the road with some dpl pages if needed.
Oh yeah, while on that, as I've been trying to get pages moved to be more consistent with nationality spelling where applicable (like keeping Koviri as that for game info but otherwise switching it over to Koviran or Kovirian) I didn't see it ever mentioned in the English books as "Skelligan" and can't recall it ever saying that in the games either, so was wondering where that came from O.o
This is the "Spanish/Spaniard" case of demonym. At a few very rare occasions, TW3 uses Skelligan in dialogues when referring to items. Other times it's simply "Skellige [item name]" or Skelliger if person (apparently Skelligirl when female). Standalone G and TB makes it clear "Skelliger" is for people, "Skelligan" an adjective.
Or just want to make things even more confusing. I mean bad enough with different demonymns for the same locations, but now this? T_T and ugh, "skelligirl" really? This is what I like about English, so simple. We generally don't do gendered words xD
I adore that about English too. Am pretty big into French now and while Slovak has gender differentiation, French takes it to a whole new level :DD
Since it was uttered just once, how about considering Skelligirl a joke? Agnetha Skold wouldn't agree but making appropriate note would IMO be a killer.
Real quick question, is it supposed to be a separate page from the bestiary page? Because otherwise right now it would lead to a lot of confusion if that was to be the new Toad Prince page. I also wouldn't mind if they're 2 separate pages in this case (sort of like how Dettlaff technically has 2 pages as he also had a separate bestiary entry).
Eh, for those kinds of pages where it's only game lore, I'd prefer to stick to the bestiary/game layout and use the info on the person as a separate page.
(putting the list here as Bizi and I are in the middle of smth in the main thread)
Unofficial heraldry (not from books or any licensed adaptation):
COA Blue Mountains.png
COA Maribor bird.png
COA Dol Blathanna.png
COA Arcsea.png
COA Brokilon.png
COA Bremervoord1.png
COA Cidaris merged.png
COA Creyden.png
COA Ebbing.png
COA Emblonia2.png
COA Kerack var3.png
COA Redania ancient.png
COA Saskias Free State.png
COA skellige by tiltschmaster.png
COA Velhad.png
COA Zerrikania.png
Zerrikania emblem.svg
COA Gemmera Nilfgaard.png
COA Rowan Nilfgaard.png
COA Salm.png
COA Etolia Nilfgaard.png
COA Ebbing Nilfgaard.png
COA Geso Nilfgaard.png
COA Mag Turga Nilfgaard.png
On a related note, if I send you a link to pdf file of The Witcher Role-Playing Game could you cut out the coats of arms included there? Because now by removing these we'll have a few states without emblems (and yea some are heraldically incorrect but Ruttou promised to correct them once he has time).
Juraj103 wrote:
(putting the list here as Bizi and I are in the middle of smth in the main thread)
Unofficial heraldry (not from books or any licensed adaptation):
COA Blue Mountains.png
COA Maribor bird.png
COA Dol Blathanna.png
COA Arcsea.png
COA Brokilon.png
COA Bremervoord1.png
COA Cidaris merged.png
COA Creyden.png
COA Ebbing.png
COA Emblonia2.png
COA Kerack var3.png
COA Redania ancient.png
COA Saskias Free State.png
COA skellige by tiltschmaster.png
COA Velhad.png
COA Zerrikania.png
Zerrikania emblem.svg
COA Gemmera Nilfgaard.png
COA Rowan Nilfgaard.png
COA Salm.png
COA Etolia Nilfgaard.png
COA Ebbing Nilfgaard.png
COA Geso Nilfgaard.png
COA Mag Turga Nilfgaard.png
On a related note, if I send you a link to pdf file of The Witcher Role-Playing Game could you cut out the coats of arms included there? Because now by removing these we'll have a few states without emblems (and yea some are heraldically incorrect but Ruttou promised to correct them once he has time).
Blue Mountains has kinda been confirmed on Gwent board.
While we talk Lyrians: Berrik isn't Berric in Polish. He appears only in WGW, which was never officially translated, and there he's called Berrik (I originally used SMiki's anglicization). Hope I didn't confuse you.
The thing is I'm still iffy about putting that at all. In my head it's like saying "Joe Smith is likely related to Anna Smith" all because of a last name when "Smith" is actually a very common last name and likely not related.
Sure but in a clan-based society, I doubt there'd be someone called Hoog and be completely unrelated to, let's say Brouver, even if distantly. Imagine Jimmy Tuirseach running around but have zero ties to An Skellig jarls. We are also talking here about dwarves who are fewer than humans. Similarly, Fitz-Osterlen is a noble surname.
Except there are those who take on names of clans but not necessarily related to the rest. For example if someone marries into one (like Birna). That's what I'm getting at: a last name really just means they share the name but nothing foolproof to indicate they're related.
I'd say only put possibly if there's some indications they might be related (like how some might reference to the other or they do interact together, etc). Otherwise it gets into speculation.
I didn't include Mboro's Metinna COA for this very reason. Why did you remove it? Yeah sure it used to be unofficial but CDPR changed it just as Bizippo points out.
À propos Berrik, he somehow managed to get crowned in Rivia so his titles should include King of Rivia too (CDPR kinda confirms this by saying there were at least two personal unions before Reginald and Meve forged the united kingdom in one TB article, wanna link?)
Aaaaaah, silly me, I thought your reply was to Bizippo. Here goes the link to an article in which CDPR basically says Lyria and Rivia were in the personal union at least once before.
Ah nice! Though it does make writing their history more complicated xD
Also deleting some more COAs that I don't recall being described or official, notably Pontaria, Angren, Sodden (and Lower and Upper), Malleore, and Barefield.
Yup, love bits like this too. The only problem with the Pontarian coat of arms, for me, is that our version looks somewhat fabric :/ Like a piece of cloth if you understand what am trying to say.
If you can give me a list of things that should be included on every article concerning a title. To be concrete, am just now finishing Elder of Mahakam.
No problem putting the link here but, why do you ask?
Ah, well we never really did title pages like that before so I wouldn't know what to include or how to go about doing it. Using wikipedia as an example, I'd say Description, History, Powers and Duties, Notable people, etc. to start.
I want to make sure I compare the COAs correctly. I'm trying to set up a template to make it easier (hopefully) but I want to make sure the right one is used in it.
Also, do you know which Geso/Gheso COA is the more official one? There's one with the sun and one without.
Then there's also Cidaris: again I don't recall seeing the shell version anywhere O.o
EDIT
Eh, to make it simpler, just take a look through the Northern Kingdoms and Nilfgaardian Empire pages with locations/COAs and for the ones that are missing a COA but have one on file, just tell me if it's official or not (or if it has several, which one is more official) and site the source for me so I can add it to the page xD
Done. Am kinda proud of how it turned out, not gonna lie.
Alright. Dear lady, take a seat and wonder for here goes your list of glorious royal et imperial crests of origins most verifiable!
Cidaris
the shell version appears in TW3 (Ciri tree)
the fish version appears in The Witcher Role-Playing Game and I'd consider it more official since the previous one is just on a tree could be considered COA of Cidaris in times of Liam.
Cintra
all well but this one is redundant
Etolia
the one that remains is in the WGW
Nilfgaard region
appears in the games as such
Ebbing
The snake is a WGW thing, rivers canonized in TW3 (Ciri tree)
Ok so think I got most of them in now. You'll see I've created a new template COA Flags. It'll default to flags unless you put "coa" in "type" and all you have to do is fill in "country" with whichever country you want a coa/flag to display (it'll also display some regions but I couldn't think of a better word to encompass all of them so country it is). It'll also work for real world flags provided we have the flag on file and it's in the template and will hopefully keep sizing and COA/Flags consistent across the wiki.
The one kicker is if we ever update or change an emblem, the template will need to be updated (I'm sure there's some complex way to make it pull from a page's infobox but yeah, not going to dilve into that atm so just insert the file name into it please xD ) but it's a whole lot easier than going from page to page updating them instead.
That said I found a few more that need info on:
Magne
Gemmera (not so much about it, but if you want to display the brown version as well on the page. If not, should probably get rid of them)
Anchor (I see it has a COA but not sure if you wanted to delete that one)
Vizima (I see it has a COA, is this official?)
Donimir (has 2, wasn't sure if you wanted to display both on his page or not)
Kaedwen, Kerack, and Maribor (have 1 or more variants, do you want to keep all of them?)
Very nice idea. I like that so much. As for the list:
Magne = It's based on Magne Division flag that appeared in GWENT. Not described whatsoever.
Gemmera = In fact, I wanna display brown version in the infobox.
Anchor = Unofficial and IMO ugly (made by me so I can say such things xD).
Vizima = Based on COA of Temeria in times of Dezmod, not official though.
Donimir = We should just use the one we use now.
Kaedwen = Wait for Ruttou's versions of flag and COA, we'll use those.
Kerack = Eh, actually, neither. Have you ever seen the COA of Dauphiny in France? The dolphin should be in a position like that on Kerackian emblem as well (and in Czech books, it is)...
Maribor = Its COA description is vague, only stating red and silver lilies. Think should decide which interpretation to use.
BTW: can you somehow add a COA field to Locations box similar to the one kingdoms have? We have few cities like Rivia or Novigrad which have emblems.
Well that's actually the reason I didn't want to add the COA to the location template: unlike the kingdoms, locations generally have a picture as the "main" part of the infobox, so if I add room for coa/flags, it won't look very good (like stacks of images on top of each other, creating a much longer infobox). That's why I added it like for characters instead.
They also have an odd border between their image the coa/flags section. I just flipped it to show you but honestly I don't like how it loooks because now it's butting up against the main image.
Also wikipedia doesn't look good. For example, see NYC page, images on images x_x
The only other way I can think of (besides going back to being a subsection like the character boxes) is to have it further down under an "Emblem(s)" heading (like the world/area maps are).
And yeah, countries and cities use different layout formats on Wikipedia which is... not pretty xD
PS: Could you move Radovit II to Radowit II? Same reason as Berrik, the comic was never translated into English soo he, in fact, appears nowhere as Radovit II. Plus we should delete Radovit I page, redundant (like having pages about Demavend I and Demavend II).
@Juraj got a dilemma. So I'm trying to see about using DPL for the quest pages, the problem is that I do like having the symbols there that designate if it's unmarked or is a quest that will be cut off after a certain point in the game. There's no easy way around this that I can find at the moment when it comes to DPL other than it having it's own separate column or putting the symbols in the name part of the quest box itself. Or just do option 3 and leave them alone and fill them in manually. Your thoughts?
PS: How do you feel about adding a motto section into familybox? Would like if there was one but there are very few families who could use it (Cintran royal family is the only I can think of atm) so...
PPS: Plz move Military of Isles to Jarl of Skellige's troop via bot. Thank you!
@Bizippo: Nope, AFAIAA nothing of the sort is stated, just that he was already dead by 1267 (TB dialogues say he died in 1259) but please correct me if you have any evidence/calculation for 1267 :)
Yeah but while gnomish is a totally different language, those you listed are almost the same of elder speech. I should paste the whole tabel, especially for dryad and ellylon.
Mm I also have a bit of a dilemma about Rayla. During whole Thronebreaker she can be in Meve's company but this is a bit against lore isn’t it? Dunno what should I do with her page. How’s that big edit for Demavend going btw?
Basically, the way I do is if the person in question is canon or not. If it's a chraacter that only existed in the game(s) then I put it as non-canon as they didn't exist in the canon story. If they did though and it was known in the books then it would be considered canon.
However, if it's an action only known in the games but not the books, it's considered non-canon action.
Bizippo wrote:
Mm I also have a bit of a dilemma about Rayla. During whole Thronebreaker she can be in Meve's company but this is a bit against lore isn’t it? Dunno what should I do with her page. How’s that big edit for Demavend going btw?
@Bizippo: Interesting. I think this should be solved by us considering the Rayla-leaving (and all choices tbat lwad to it) canon and note the other possibility and its story in Notes section (like I did with Siegfried of Denesle after TWRPG came out)
@Mechemik: I understand your point but still, I'd like to convince you on this birth-years matter. Works nice on Harry Potter Wiki…
@Juraj except it's not very helpful when you think about it. For instance, we know Geralt's about 100 years old, but it doesn't really help to go "born sometime before 1170" especially when mages and witchers live far longer than people, and we eventually run into the issue with those who we can only guess at being at least 150 years ago (like many of Ciri's ancestors) and as we can't really assume when they had children (some had children well into their elder years, while some could have them very young like Amavet) it doesn't help to make assumptions like that.
Also, I think I got it working but keep an eye on Quest3 infobox just in case. In short, I've done some formatting to shove quest icon to the left, quest name center, and region icon (the one that shows in the quest journal) to the right. It's not perfect (if there's no quest icon the region icon won't show, but as all quests should have one, that shouldn't be an issue). You just need to tell it the region (or in the palace case, "vizima") and it'll pop in the icon.
I've also added type of quest to the infobox (automatically populates based on the icon so don't need to add those) and the new, super duper "cutoff point" to hopefully let people know if there is a point of no return, which quest it is. I'm still fiddling around if I should split some parts of the infobox into another subsection, but for now yeah.
And all of this was done to hopefully get DPL working eventually for the quest pages (we'll see once I test it out some more).
Alright, true, it hardly makes sense for witchers, elves, mages, dwarves etc. but in case of Tarrand, we can tell he was born in 1245 or shortly after because he is at least 17-ish in Gra Wyobrázni supplement that takes place somewhere around 1259. And and and, we can say he wasn't born before 1245 because he has no children in the SoS.
As for your quest box adjustments: holy cow, good work! And here I was thinking the infobox and page-layout for quest articles couldn't get much better. Soo do I understand correctly that the regions are to be put with small initials like "skellige" and not "Skellige"?
@Juraj yeah but then it makes the text in the infobox longer than it should be, not to mention if we start that, those who don't know the thought process will start trying to add it to characters where there isn't a very good range. I'd just like to keep it neat and tidy with one year :)
Also you can put it in caps as "Skellige", it's set to accept both lowercase and uppercase versions. The only stickler is that I think there's either a bug on my end or overall, as despite some saying "Novigrad" region, the icon is Velen's. Can you confirm that? If so, just keep putting Novigrad for those pages as it'll at least help with DPL purposes, even if the icon isn't technically correct.
@Mechemik: Understandable. You convinced me. As far as the Novigrad issue goes, yeah I can definitely confirm that (Contract: The Oxenfurt Drunk for example). Is it a temporary issue that will fix itself with time or how is it?
@Juraj oh no, I meant if you can check when you have time in your game to see if it shows the correct icon or not. In my game, even the "Novigrad" region quests show the Velen icon, which is why I have it like that in the template right now. However, I don't know if it's a bug in my game that's causing it or not.
I am working on the Demavend article and have this tiny little question: should I keep the wording formal (as in did not, could not, was not, it is etc.) or no (didn't, couldn't, wasn't, it's...)?
Personally, I prefer not using contractions when writing articles. Although, I think that ultimately it doesn't matter whether you write with contractions or without, because either form is a valid expression of the English language. My opinion is that you should just do your thing, use contractions or don't, as long as it's all grammatically correct.
Exactly, I don't think we should set a policy for such as we don't actively go and translate to other languages (the admins for those I'm sure do their own thing instead of copy/pasting from here).
Normally with Biography etc. etc. and when you come to the part where TB potentially conflicts the books, just write it as if Rayla left Meve (and note in Notes section how, based on Times of Contempt and The Lady of the Lake, that is the only canon possibility or whatever).
Kaedwen is derived from Caedwen, name elves used to call this forest area, which is comprised of caed meaning forest and suffix wen which means white in the Elder Speech. Therefore the kingdom's name can be translated as the White Forest.
An interesting thing I just learned while re-reading BoE, I think I found the official name of the Dwarven language is Dwarvish. It's used when Triss curses in it when she sees all the bruises on Ciri.
@Bizippo: Aedirn is a name which comes from the first crowned queen of the realm, Aedireen. Before that it was a Duchy of Vengerberg, with Venger part coming from Aedireen's grandfather Prince Venger.
@Mechemik: Interesting. I think it should be moved to Dwarvish then, shouldn't it?
@Mechemik: Good to know. I gotta correct you tho: when Foltest mentions his grandfather he doesn't mean Hugo but, actually, Griffin (his great-grandfather). He disliked Hugo and had a habit of leaving him out of genealogy, thus causing much confusion.
@Juraj ah, is it more specific in Polish? Because in English they said "grandfather" which is used to mean, well "grandfather" (unlike "cousin" which can mean literally cousins or just someone who's so distantly relatd we know we're related just not sure how xD ).
To your question: it's indeed specified in Dynastic notes that Hugo's son Medell and grandson Foltest disliked him. Foltest had a habit of omitting Hugo from the family tree and talked about "Grandfather Griffin" in the same breath as "Grandma Bienvenu" and "Great-grandma Clarissa", confusing many a courtier.
@Juraj oh no, I mean in BoE, is it more specific about which person Foltest is talking about? As I said, he says "grandfather" and it really doesn't make sense in the context of his mother's line so more than likely I'm assuming he's referring to his Temerian line.
He is talking about the Temerian line. Am I not being clear? Dynastic notes tell us Foltest disliked his grandfather Hugo (Bienvenu's 2nd husband) and therefore never talked about him. He instead used "grandfather" to refer to his great-grandfather King Griffin (Bienvenu's father).
Now in BoE, he does mentions a grandfather but, again, he isn't talking about Hugo of Rivia but Griffin. If you need any more confirmation, dynastic note about Griffin says he removed priests from power. Ringing any bells?
See, that's what I'm trying to get it: grandfather in English means 2 generations ago: for example if I say my grandfather through my mom's side, I mean my mom's father, not my great-grandfather (who'd instead be my mom's father's father). So in the English translation, it means he's referring to Hugo (even if he never says his name). That's why I was trying to figure out if there was a mis-translation, because unlike cousin (which can be used to mean diffrent degrees of relation) grandfather is more specific and not used to mean anyone past 2 generations :)
What? Sorry am just hella confused by all this because no matter how hard I try to word it perfectly you don't seem to understand.
This is all going through the paternal line. Hugo is indeed the father of the father of Foltest BUT, for some reason, Folest never ever liked Hugo. Instead he deliberately referred to his great-grandfather King Griffin (father of the mother of Foltest's father) as "grandfather". He does it by his own decision.
In BoE, Foltest is in no way talking about Hugo but I fear I can't find any more words to explain :/
Ok, so in English, the book wording is that Foltest literally says "grandfather", not "great-grandfather" and, in English, when we say grandfather it means we're talking about the 2nd generation specifically, nobody past that. If we wanted to instead refer to the 3rd generation (like Griffin) we'd instead say "great-grandfather" not "grandfather" if that makes it easier to understand. That's why I'm trying to figure out if there was a mistranslation (sort of like how you guys have specific words that mean "of the maternal line" like with Crach's mother while in English there was no word for that so we couldn't tell).
This is more of Foltest's personal issue, not a mistranslation. He didn't like / hated / loathed Hugo, his paternal grandfather. Because of this, Foltest used to intentionally leave Hugo out of the family as if he never lived, never existed, and despite the fact that Hugo was his grandfather (2nd generation back), Foltest used the word grandfather (used to describe someone 2 generations back, of course) when talking about Griffin (who in reality was 3 generations back). He didn't, however, change "Grandmother Bienvenu" and "Great-grandmother Clarissa" (who was Griffin's wife).
No, the problem is the COA in the game is actually laid out differently and there's some runes on the banner as well (don't know what it's saying though).
@Mechemik: The 1st paragraph of his Bio, well, there's no firm reference for whats said there but it can be deduced. Could you word somehow that while it isn't confirmed that Arcsea has been a part of Kovir, we know for sure Hengfors was and since Audoen tore it from Kovir we assume he did so with Arcsea as well?
2nd thing: can you please find the quote where Caldemeyn describes what type of king Audoen is?
Juraj103 wrote: *Kerack = Eh, actually, neither. Have you ever seen the COA of Dauphiny in France? The dolphin should be in a position like that on Kerackian emblem as well (and in Czech books, it is)...
Neither Dauphiny's or Czech dolphin is nageant. Sapkowski is actually pretty clear with this particular COA since he's given the exact French (!) description of it.
@SMiki55: Nothing escapes you, right? :D But yeah, gotta admit I overlooked that part. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
@Bizippo: Googled it after reading your message and it looks great buut I fear it might be fake because my eye caught smth that doesnt really make sense -- a soldier bearing a shield with the symbol of the School of the Wolf on it.
The same Hungarian studio made some stuff for The Witcher 3, maybe they just reused some assets.
Juraj, after thinking a bit: what about using standard nageant in the flag, and the turned-tail one in the COA (fits the shield better)? I know, the description doesn't mention queue contournee, but honestly it's hard to believe that Sapko wanted the dolphin not to fit the shield
Another thing: I feel like Vampire Language and Gnomish Speech should be moved to "Vampire language" and "Gnomish language" respectively until we get their official name in some source.
Done. Speaking of which, I've been meaning to bring this up for awhile: what do you think about moving the sign names to just the name itself (without "sign" after it, like "Aard" instead of "Aard sign")? we'd still have the redirects to it because "X sign" is still used pretty often, but I don't see the point in having the main name as a disambig when it's really just linking to the attribute pages.
Also want to see something cool I just learned? Check out the standalone Gwent page :p If you like it, we can roll it out for the major game pages (obivously I wouldn't recommend it for a lot of pages, just a handful of important ones).
Nice, thank you. While we’re still on the topic of languages, could you maybe make a language infobox? It could include sections like script, used in/by, derrived from (for languages based on the Elder Speech) etc.
Signs: oh I wholeheartedly agree. Even meant to bring this up once but forgot.
Downright glorious! Can I just express how grateful I’m for all your work?
Eh, not sure if languages deserve an infobox to be honest. There's so few actual ones (not counting dialects) and most of the info is very basic and could be summed up in a couple sentences on the pages themslves (mostly concerning that the majority are based on Elder Speech).
As for all the signs, the trees are now on the same page as their skills page and also went and move the others as well so no more weird separate tree/skills pages.
Yeah when you put it this way, I agree. It might be better to wait untill there’s more.
Another thing I’ve been meaning to bring up: why isn’t the Mo template more widespread? I think it’d be better to use just that one in order to avoid writing the entire “small mentioned only” stuff:
I thought it was in use quite a bit? I ran the bot a few weeks ago to fix those O.o
Also I just realized, where did you get some of the info for Siegfried's parents? I can't recall off the top of my head it being confirmed that Eyck was actually his father (and I don't remember where his mother was mentioned).
All of that comes from the Thronebreaker where Eyck’s (optionally) a prominent character.
PS: ak currently pretty away from my PC and adding a new page via phone could frankly end in dissaster so, can you add a page about the “Lords & Lands” supplement for The Witcher Role-Playing Game?
@Juraj because it was just text taken straight from Wikipedia with no witcher lore on it (other than that Dandelion had studied them). Therefore, unnless there's actual more lore behind it, it's better to just directly link to the Wikipedia page regarding them than create a separate page here.
I'm not exactly sure, wasn't looking for that information on reading. My best guess is it's based on the races: the older ones (like the gnomes and dwarves) are probably considered the older ones, but not sure.
Probably, until we can find any references for it. And thanks :)
Also, I'm trying to clean up the names/redirects for the Brotherhood, Council, and Chapter, so was going through the books to doublecheck and I noticed a couple things. 1) the full name of the Council is never stated in the books (English only has Council of Wizards, and in SoS, it puts it informally as "Chapter of sorcerers"). The only thing I can find is from the games in the book Diary of a Fire Swallower. Can you confirm that?
Also, I've edited the mention of "conclave" because looking at the few times it's mentioned (only in ToC) conclave is used more to mean the meeting that was to take place on Thanedd than the name of the groups themselves, if that makes sense, and only in the games does it treat to mean the Chapter.
The Chapter of sorcerers is the Brotherhood’s other body (aka the Chapter of the Gift and the Art). As for the “Supreme” part... yeah I can’t remember where that one’s from either but am quite sure it doesn’t come from CDPR. Gonna search.
Yeah, right now just going through the redirects list to make sure everything is correct in there and weed out some useless ones (like weird capitalizations and such).
Another idea; what if we moved the journal entries and descriptive book quotes to a “Quotes” sub-pages in case of races? I think it would look really neat.
I'm ok with them there. There's always going to be some break in it and most pages aren't able to read like a "story". We've already been down this path before remember, when you wanted to split canon/game info with character pages and then decided against it when I showed an example with Triss? :p
Since we’re talking about the races tho; why don’t we consider vodyanoi a race on the Race page? Their civilization and culture is certainly more complex than that of trolls heheh.
So first of the vodyanoy questions: if a race can possibly learn the Common to talk with other sentient races but otherwise mostly uses their own language, should I still put Common in their infobox?
