Sorry to bother, but I was reading through the family trees of Redanian and Temerian monarchs and somthing felt really odd. Riannon marries Goidemar, who's son of Gardik (that's 1 generation). We know that Gardik had a sister named Maria Pulcheria, so we can assume she's roughly around the same age as Gardik. If we follow Redanias tree through her marriage with Dambor, we arrive at Vridank (that's 4 generations), who's the addoptive father of Riannon. Am I missing something? Because this doesn't make any sense chronologically.
How can Riannon be adopted by a king who shouldn't be born yet (following common sense) for another one hundred years?
You're not bothering at all, I love to discuss lore. Yea this is really interesting. I think I know wht might be the case though.
Both Gardik (known as "old King Gardik" by the time of Falka's rebellion) and Goidemar (died 78 yo) lived and ruled for exceptionally long periods. On the other hand the Redanian kings, well, Radovid II outright dissapeared pretty early into his reign while Radovid III died of health problems when he was 44/49 (his dynastic entry repeats the sentence about death twice, each time with different age). Judging by his greatly indolent yet stressful reign I think it's possible Vestibor died young too.
But by following this logic, Gardik should've outlived four Redanian Kings (who let's say all died approximately around their fourties). That should make him way over one hundred at the time of Falka's rebelion. Goidemar's age doesn't really matter (he should be around the same age as Vestibor or even his son Radovid II) as he's the one who married Riannon (and he didn't marry her at a ripe age of 70, as he was a pretty young prince when she chose him).
Mathematically nothing adds up. There should be at least one or two generations betwenn Gardik and Geddes, but there aren't. The only thing that've make sense is that Gardik took potions to prolongue his life, which again is nearly impossible as mages kept that secret to themselves.
Although what you point out is reasonable and surely happened historically, in this case it is outright impossible if we exclude magic.
I'd like to hear further from you, cheers!
PS: There's also the fact that Vridank was in his mid twenties or early thirties when he took Riannon in (that's another twenty years to add to the equasion), as his uncle was already over fifty when he took the throne of Redania after the whole massacre.
I've come to realise that Gardik was probably a half-elf. Altough half-elves don't live as long as their elven counterparts, they can easily outlive any human by quite a margin (depends on whose genes they inherited the most i guess).
Well, Gardik was, in fact, a half-elf via his mother Vinfrida so if average human lives up to about ~65 and elves can go for 300-400 (some even 600) years I think it would make sense for someone with half-elven origin to indeed exceed 100 years without a problem, right?
Gonna return to Radovid II because am convinced he did not die in his forties but twenties (thirties at most). Why? The Genealogy entry states that after his disappearance at the sea, Redanians still hoped for his return during the reigns of Radovid III and Vridank, which would make zero sense if he was not young when he vanished.
Have to agree with your other points though, the mages of Rissberg in Season of Storms made it pretty clear that despite Ortolan's wishes they keep the life-prolonging potion for themselves.
BTW: Am very glad to talk about something like this with you. Just so you know :)
Yeah, now everything seems to come to fruition. We can algo agree that Maria Pulcheria wasn't in fact a half-elf woman as it is stated on her wiki as she was most likely a daughter of a concubine or a lover, legitimized so she could gain the status of princess?
Isn't it interesting that during the early years of the Northern Kingdoms marrying elven wemen was considered reasonably normal (apart from Cregennan and Lara, their story most likely exaggerated)? During the time when elves were being conquered and driven to the Blue Mountains? Imagine what would happen if a human married an elf in the 1260's or 70's, to the gallows!
Returning to Gardik, you mentioned that during Falka's rebellion, Gardik was still alive and known as "old King Gardik". That means that he was still king of Temeria by the time of the rebellion? And Goidemar was still a prince during the whole scandal? That means Gardik's reign could've easily been around 100 years.
Thanks for the kind words! There aren't many people who would know the lore as you do!
Tru, that's what I always assumed too. Maybe the Category:Human should be removed from her page and the race section edited to read Half-elf or Human with reference note attached to it similar to the one on Adela's article? Oh and I don't think she was necessarily a daughter of a concubine/lover as polygamy was more common at that time.
Hah yea it really's interesting. It also seems earlier kings used elven names quite often. Few examples:
Cintran kings Cerbin, Coram I and Coram II are basically Raven, Lion I and Lion II
Daughter of Kaedwenian King Benda, Elen, was born Elaine which means Beautiful
Thyssen is derived from elven "Thaess’en", meaning Hush up (funny story this one)
Yup, Gardik still lived during the rebellion though he was slowly losing the ability to rule (if you understand what I mean) and died shortly before Falka imprisoned Riannon.
You know a great deal as well. Wouldnt you maybe continue editing? Not forcing you but any help's appreciated and we still miss a lot of content, particularly from the books…
Hey, sorry to have disappeared for quite some time, real life stuff. Anyways, at the moment, just because I have free time and nothing else to do, I'm creating a detailed map for myself to follow the books with, and I came up with this problem I have regarding the nature of Ebbing and Maecht.
In short, are these two considered Provinces of the Nilfgaardian Empire or are they Vassal Kingdoms. I know in history there were ocasions where Kingdoms would be under an administration of an Empire, such as in the Byzantine and Holy Roman Empire, but I'm not quite sure what is the nature here. All together, from reading the wiki and other sources, it seems that they are Vassal Kingdoms.
And how come Maecht, a rather large territory (and from what i remember more urbanized than Metinna, and a Kingdom) is under the rule of a Province, in this case Metinna, which is under the Nilfgaardian administration.
And finally, what is the difference between the different duchies in the Empire? Let's say the Duchy of Toussaint and the Duchy of Ymlac. Is the latter as autonomouse as the first one? or is there a large difference of administration between these two. This also extends to Rowan and Salm.
As for Temerian stuff - keep in mind that the Temerian tree doesn't fit well other ones and the Saga. Pre-Goidemar period aside, there is at least one generation too much after Goidemar. Since the other trees fit each other and the Saga rather well (with some exceptions in case of certain absurd dates), I think it's good to assume that this particular tree was written before the others.
As for Provinces - keep in mind that calling many of imperial lands "vassal" wasn't a case before adaptations, the only officialy neutral realm was Ebbing. Maecht, though being a kingdom ruled by a king, is inside the Empire's borders, clearly indicated in the moment when Skellen's gang crosses Maecht-Ebbing border.
In this case, I think the Empire can be divided in huge blocks called Provinces, which are traditionally divided in various kingdoms and duchies, and technically in Palatinates. Palatinates are mentioned in the books though no land has been referred to as a palatinate yet, aside from Caldwell being called the Palatine (Palatinate of Lyria and Angren then? With Villem as traditional ruler and Caldwell as the technical one?)
Interesting, I always thought of Provinces in the Nilgaardian Empire as those in the Roman Republic and later Empire, ruled by governors instead of kings or dukes, that's why i thought there was this distinct aspect to Ebbing and Maecht maintaining its previous status.
Also, wasn't Caldwell only palatine of Angren? Just finished Thronebreaker and I don't recall aep Dahy granting him any power over Lyria and Rivia, he rather wanted him out of the Kingdom (i may be wrong here). And I would regard palatines as officials who would rule a land in behalf of someone else, beeing appointed instead of inheriting the land, at least in the context of the Nilfgaardian Empire, you know what I mean?
PS, the only well known (to an extent) Palatinate that i recall would be Pfalzgrafschaft bein Rhein, inside the Holy Roman Empire, and with a complex ruling system in itself, as being ruled by a Count. This would suit your proposition as Caldwell was a Count.
Hi there Ingvar and happy new year too you as well!
To the matter: For me, there's no doubt about Metinna's status within the Empire being on par with the one Ebbing has because Andrzej Sapkowski himself describes Metinna as a "kingdom, vassal of Nilfgaard, with apparent autonomy" in his alphabet. As I currently understand it, the Kingdom of Metinna and the Kingdom of Maecht are each ruled by their respective monarchs and, in appearance, independent. However, both of them have to pay tributes/taxes/levy + soldiers to their Palatine/Praefect who operates the Province of Metinna.
Also I think that by titling Caldwell as Palatine CDPR wanted to fix the lore-breaking issue with how Angren is depicted on their maps (which is to say, much larger than described in the books). Maybe the Palatinate of Angren contains Angren, Riverdell and Southern Dol Angra?
I see, makes sense tbh. Although I'm still a bit confused on the distinction between Kingdoms and Provinces within the Empire, an example: in his alphabet, the description of Thurn is this: miasto w prowincji Maecht, but apperently ruled by King Hoet. So can a Province = Kingdom?
Regarding Angren, what is it really? A region or a state? In CDPR's map it is shown as if it was a soveraign country (altough wrongly placed), but everything else points it to be just a region in between the Mahakam Mountains and the Jaruga river. Sapkowski in his alphabet describes it as just "land", so it isn't clear, at least for me. And if it is in fact a region, who did it belong to before the first war with Nilfgaard, was it part of Sodden or Lyria..?
Well what do you know. Maybe there was Goidemar of Redania between Sambuk and Abrad or Abrad and Radovid The Great :P Seriously though, in my book, the alphabet is canon as long as it doesn’t directly conflict "harder canon" (i.e. books and genealogies). Therefore if alphabet describes Maecht as Province, but then Fenn says it's a "Kingdom [...], and administratetively march of the Province of Metinna" than the latter is correct.
Due to the fact that Province of Metinna consists of 2 semi-autonomous kingdoms, I'm sure Province doesn’t equal Kingdom (Nordlings just use the term for every land dependant on Nilfgaard im one way or another, it seems). On the other hand, a kingdom can easily become Province if it refuses to surrender and swear fealty in time (e.g. Geso).
As for Angren, I always considered it a country but one consumed by wilderness and mostly unadvanced barbaric. Whom did it belong to? I guess it's similar to how Riverdell's history was described: a disputed strip of land fought over by Temerians, Soddeners, Rivians and others until Nilfgaard came around.
Hey Juraj! So after all these months (and many exams :'c) I finished a map I was working on that I told you about previously, so I can follow the books that I finally plan to start reading again sometime next week. I was wondering if you could comment a few words on the map, if you have the time of course: https://i.redd.it/kps2frtkeab31.png
I took a lot of inspiration from already existing maps, but I added a few changes which I though would fit (at least in my head) to the map.
Well, I allways though that the Far North is just above the main Koviri and Poviss regions (maybe extending even further in a few cases but with limited settlements), so let's say Velhad, Narok and Talgar (based on the descriptions of the wiki).
Anyways, I could have labeled the are further as Far North, for the sake of not getting confused.
Technical stuff mostly, put some color here, add some there. I would also like to make the borders between realms stand out more, even though it's totally non-canon as we have nearly 0 info about where borders begin and where they end, a part from a few cases.
But I think I'll take a few months off for myself and enjoy the books once again!